Unknown Nations Podcast

Greg Kelley: 
Hello everybody and welcome to the Unknown Nations Podcast, highlighting what God is doing in the most spiritually dark places in the world. Today, we are gonna have a fun conversation. You've met Mike before the Director of International Ministries here at Unknown Nations, and then Randy, who has been one of our dear partners and friends, just a real brilliant mind when it comes to Unreached People Groups and the topic we're talking about.

We're gonna need every ounce of insight from Randy because we are talking about the Middle East and North Africa. We're gonna do a deep dive on the dynamics. It's such a unique place, a beautiful, beautiful culture, but so many are yet to hear the gospel message. So my name is Greg Kelly with Unknown Nations, where we have the honor to serve God by helping reach the most zero access barrier ridden, spiritually antagonistic spoken word, reliant people, groups on the planet, giving birth to the church in impossible places. And although historically, and I know Randy would correct me if I said the gospel's never been here, he would say, “hold on a second, Greg. The gospel's been there. In fact, that's where it started.” 
We're talking about the start, the location of Christianity. Islam, Judaism, all in this, sort of a crockpot of dynamic cultures, really commonly held together by the Arabic language, which is one of the things that makes it such a unique area.
But, Randy, buddy, let's just start with you. Mike and I have enjoyed your wisdom and insights on this area. You are so knowledgeable. You are actually on the hit list of a famous leader, and have ruffled some feathers because of Jesus. But when you think about the Middle East and North Africa, Randy, just tell me like your instinctive first reaction when you think about that area of the world.

Randy: 
I think the common denominator is Islam more than anything, and that brought Arabic language and part of the heartbreak is each of those places did have the gospel. North Africa is the home of St. Augustine, who is the most influential theologian of the Western world. The problem is that in, not all of it, but much of it, the gospel didn't exist in the heart language of peoples.

So if you think of North Africa, that was Roman conquered territory. The people outside of Egypt were Berber and their churches, which were good churches, were churches that operated in Latin and didn't make it to the heart language of the people. So when the Arab Conquest came later, it was a lot easier to destroy Christianity in North Africa, and then to drive the Berber into the desert and into the mountains. The same was not true everywhere, but was often true that seldom was the gospel available in the heart language of peoples. 

Greg Kelley: 
Hmm. Yeah. Wow. That probably is the reason why, even in that area, the gospel has really struggled to sort of get established with little exception. And Mike, I hate to flip it over to you after that introduction, brother, about the burs and all that history. But where Randy is, we're interested to tap into his insights a whole lot more here during our time together. But as a Director of International Ministries here at Unknown Nations, that's a special place for us as an organization, isn't it?

Mike Grandy: 
Yeah, it sure is. And yeah, you're right. Randy is a tough act to follow. He's an amazing guy. He's one of those people who has all the theory, but he has all the application too. He's done some amazing things as just amazing stories. He talks the talk, but he walks the walk. And so it's a real privilege to be able to tap into his knowledge.

But yeah, our network, we have 35 strategic outposts all throughout the 10-40 window. And if you draw the lines across, the 10-40 lines, that includes the Middle East in North Africa. And that's what we're talking about. Today's the MENA region. So if you hear that term, MENA, that's what we're talking about, the Middle East and North Africa.

It's a little bit different, but it typically includes straight across North Africa from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, and then all the way across, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, in Saudi Arabia, all those kinds of, those regions. I didn't name all of them, but right across those regions. And it's very interesting to us because you mentioned at the start that most of these areas, what unites them. Greg, you had mentioned they all speak Arabic and Randy, you said most of them are Islamic. They would all fall right into the sweet spot of our vision of unreached people groups.
It's one of those things. We are laser focused on our vision to hit unreached people groups. And so we hone in on it and it breaks our heart that these people are unreached. But it also gets our attention. And in this region, if you did all of it together, it's probably 98, 99% Islamic.

Greg Kelley: 
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's, that's crazy. It is just amazing the commonality that is in that area. And Randy, I just want to get the 20 ton elephants out of the way first in this conversation. And that is this whole area. If I say Algeria, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Syria, Tunisia, all these things have the same thing in common.

And then I say Israel, like Israel is like the one country that's surrounded by all these. Majority Muslim countries. What's your insight on that, Randy, just from even a historical standpoint? Obviously being God's chosen people, we know the Jewish need Jesus too. There's very few Jews, who by definition have confessed with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead. They're waiting for the Messiah, not thinking that he's come, obviously following the teachings of Jesus, but not as the risen savior who died, paid the price, the penalty for their sins and have embraced him as Lord and Savior. So we pray for the Jewish people as well, but Randy, it's so interesting that Israel is surrounded by all these Arab nations, what's your take on that? 

Randy: 
Well, if we think of our New Testament and the New Testament and with the time of the epistles and so on, kind of extends till right around the fall of Jerusalem when Titus destroys the temple. Probably Revelations is written after that, but much of it is certainly around those kinds of times. Over the next couple centuries, it's almost completely depopulated of Jews. Not a hundred percent, but largely so in other places. Iran became a big center for Judaism. Yemen became a big center for Judaism.

Morocco became a big center for Judaism and made it an imperfect statement. But Jews tended to live tolerably in the various Muslim empires. There was a system whereby people who were not Muslims had a religious freedom to exist as non-Muslims, and that's why through much of the Middle East there are historic Christian churches.

There's the Antioch and Orthodox Church, which dates itself back to Paul as the founder, and they have had a continuous existence since then. So the Muslim empires basically allowed non-Muslims to exist, not to propagate among Muslims. But to exist. So they sort of existed. And then in the 18 hundreds under the principle of Zionism, they started returning. I'm not sure how much further you want me to go down that road. 

Greg Kelley: 
Well, that's, no, it's just interesting. You've got this small land that's surrounded by groups like Hamas and Hezbollah and Isis. It's just such an interesting dynamic, but the bottom line is they all need Jesus.

And that's why our mission's efforts have to be sort of, the message never changes, but the strategy and the technique does. And so to the benefit of mission organizations that are trying to work in this area and these so many unreached people groups, you've got the commonality of Arabic being the language.

Mike, what one of our strategies is we have the solar powered audio bible that we distribute and so the benefits, if you have a singular language, but sometimes there's a variety of dialects, but nevertheless, it's all in that Arabic sort of window. So what's our perspective on that when we think about this whole region having a common language and maybe the benefits that that might lend to taking the gospel there, 'cause we're always looking at it through the lens or what are the barriers to get the gospel in here? And one of the starting points is language, right? That's where we kind of go. 

Mike Grandy: 
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We know that so much of the world is oral learners and so we have access to over 4,000 languages for the audio bibles.
And it is nice in this area that, like you said, they all speak Arabic, but there it is sort of amazing. If you start kind of digging into the different languages, there's Egyptian Arabic and there's Syrian Arabic, and all these different variants of Arabic, but generally speaking, they can understand Arabic, but we have access to many of those variants.

And so when we're going into a specific area, we can load Egyptian, Arabic, when the Treasures are going into Egypt, we can load 17 when they're going in those areas where they speak that variant of Arabic. And it's such a great privilege that the day and age that we live in now, that we have access to this and we can get the gospel to these places.

And in much of the manna region, they have cell phones too. So we're actually developing a mobile app where they can have access to some shows that maybe they wouldn't watch otherwise, but they could watch the chosen series and get some gospel exposure and then in addition to that, we're actually putting the audio bible within the app so they can access this right through the app. And that's one of the projects we're working on as well. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah, it's gonna be an amazing tool. For us, going back to that point of the message never changes. It is the gospel. It is the salvation through Christ alone message, but the tactic we're not sending, as far as I know now, Randy might be an exception. I don't think we're sending any more one-way missionaries into places like North Africa where they're packing their stuff in their caskets. I might be wrong, Randy, but I don't think we're doing that anymore. Are we? 

Randy: 
If we mean Unknown Nations, you're not. I can't think of any country that you've mentioned for which there are no closet missionaries.

Greg Kelley: 
Yes. Yes. Let's drill into that a little bit, Randy, because you are so right. One of the barriers is this notion of westerners coming in. I tried to get into Yemen. Five times, and I was denied a Visa, which is in this region that we're talking about. So if the strategy to reach Yemen with Jesus is to send Greg Kelly or Mike Grandy or Randy, it's probably a bad strategy, 'cause the likelihood of us getting in there is pretty uncertain. But these leaders that are on the ground, they are sold out. Describe what an indigenous leader looks like, Randy, in this part of the world that is so hostile to the gospel.

Randy: 
Well, I think there's a number of layers that you wanna think about, even in that. So there are westerners in some surprising places. Some of their interesting strategies are just gut busting, hilarious. But there are underground churches in all of the countries that you've mentioned. They exist, they've gotten there sometimes through the works of three dimensional human beings who brought the gospel, a missionary from some place or other.

And there are people who came to Jesus through dreams and visions and ended up finding the scriptures. And Jesus calls out a local branch of his bride. Yeah, God has been determined to call out a people for his name and he is not particularly stopped or slowed down. I think Psalm 2 was a Psalm that the apostles kind of referred to in the Book of Acts, and it's still true. "Why did the heath of rage and imagine a vain thing? Heath who sits in heaven laughs. He holds them in derision. If he said he's gonna call out people for his name, then he's gonna do it.” 

Greg Kelley: 
Yes. Yeah. Amen. 

Randy: 
It is happening. It isn't happening as fast as I might like. It isn't happening as pain-free as I would like. But persecution has never stopped the church. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of evidence that persecution has actually spread the church, and it scattered it. That's what it did in Jerusalem as it went to Samaria as a result of the persecution. But I do wanna talk, guys, I wanna get both of your perspectives, because the area we're talking about a lot of research will say that when you combine it all together, that's about it, it represents just over 400 million people. That's a big chunk of population in this area, and they say about 68% of the people there. So roughly, 70% you're in the neighborhood of 300 million, just under 300 million are considered without access to the gospel.

And we know that it's a very religious area. It just happens to be Islam, but there are unique barriers every area, whether it's a Buddhist, majority area, Hindu area, even animist area, there's unique barriers to very religious areas and breaking away. Both of you guys talk into that a little bit.
Like what? What is the type of barrier, why? Is it that 70% almost of the people of four, over 400 million would be never hearing the gospel? There's these challenges that make it that way. What are some of those things and why is it so, so hard for someone to come out of Islam? Mike, start with you. 

Mike Grandy: 
Yeah, I'll jump in. Some of the barriers that you talk about are there, a lot of these places, they're very spread out. When I think particularly when you talk about the countryside of Egypt and Algeria and Libby, they're spread out. A lot of the people are, they're just difficult to reach, and they have long standing customs, families and clans, and this is where they stand.

And this is what their clan is. And they're just geographically hard to get to. Another thing I think of often too is the governments, many of these countries have anticon conversion laws. It's illegal to convert to Christianity. And sometimes it's punishable by death. And so there's a fear barrier that comes into, that's a barrier right there.

And I think a lot of times too, your religion sometimes becomes part of your identity. You see that in a lot of places. It's like, I'm Bedouin, so I'm Muslim, I'm this, so I'm Muslim. And, and those barriers, they just don't have access to the gospel. And so we work really, really hard to try to get them the tools they need through our partners, get the Treasures out to these really distant places. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah, there's definitely a radical nature that's the right word, that when we talk about Islam, so many times we talk about the people who have been radicalized. I can remember, Randy, I had heard a story we're coming just towards the end of Ramadan here. But during Ramadan, of course, you're forbidden to do anything, eat food and it's fasting, strict fasting from sunup till sundown. And there was an individual who was caught just holding a bottle of water, just holding it.

He wasn't even actively drinking it. He was holding it. He was in Beirut, and one of these radicals walked up to him with a knife and slashed his face just so there'd be a massive scar as a punishment during Ramadan for holding water. So it's hard for us to comprehend, but there are absolute barriers to the gospel in this area of the world. Randy, what has your experience sort of showed you as, when you think about that idea of barriers? 

Randy: 
Well, I think all of those that Mike mentioned are true, I think even more significant is that Islam is a really good lie. Good lies have some truth within them, otherwise they're laughable, they're jokes. So Islam has truth within it without being the truth with a capital T that we recognize.
And as such, it's a compelling lie. I don't think it's a sufficient lie. When you've had steak, who'd want bologna, but if you haven't had steak, bologna's pretty good. So Islam begins, and even Paul in Corinthians said that Satan often appears as an angel of light, and it was an angel of light who appears to Muhammad and delivers over time the revelation that gets called the Quran.

It was a satanic invention. And it's a pretty good fake for the real thing. And as such, it answers it. It contains some of the answers to the questions people ask, and that's why it has a compelling hold on people's lives. I don't think it is the best answer. I don't think it's the answer that contains God's design, but good lies are like that. They have some truth. Those are the things people can kind of hang onto and draw their lines to the next piece. 

Greg Kelley: 
Hmm. Guys talk about a little bit of that, of the price that is paid. So we reference a lot of times here at Unknown Nations. MBB, which stands for Muslim Background Believer, which become the most effective missionaries to go in, who would understand these barriers that guys are talking about better than someone who came out of it and was set free from it.

But they all paid a price. I'm not even talking so much from a high level. If you will, like the Muslim Imam, for example, the leadership, the macro level, we'll say, I'm talking about the micro level on a family level. What does that look like? What is the price that you have to be willing to pay or to accept?
To become a follower of Jesus. A, an open follower of Jesus, not a secret Christian, because there are many secret Christians, and God bless 'em. They still go into the mosque, but they call on Jesus' name in their heart, they make a decision to follow Jesus. I'm speaking of the people that go public. What is the price, Mike, that they have to be willing to pay? 

Mike Grandy: 
I'll answer that with a story I just got back from Djibouti, which in most places they call that a manna country. And I had the privilege of meeting with some amazing underground church leaders. The people who you're describing making those choices, they've made those choices to live publicly.
And to hear stories, I'll just share a testimony of one of these guys: he had a job, he had a family, had a wife and a son. And he decided to start following Jesus. He was curious about things. Began reading the Bible and realized that I'll, I'll use some words that he used.

He said, "the prophet that I was following, died and stayed dead, but Jesus of the Bible was killed and he rose to the grave. Why would I follow a dead prophet instead of Jesus?"

And I'm thinking, "wow, this, that's a good way to put it."

And these guys, these women, when they make this decision. They have to be willing to lose everything, and oftentimes they do, particularly in Djibouti, it's a very poor country. And so, if they'll take the family away, the wife may leave, the family may take the wife back, they may take the kids. And typically what happens is because it's so community based, they won't have any income anymore.

They'll think they're mentally ill at first. They might be patient for a little bit thinking, “oh, they're mentally ill. They'll come out of it.” 
And essentially they'll lose their whole community, lose their home, and sometimes they'll, they'll lose their life. And I heard one person say on this recent trip, “when they take everything away from you, it's like, well, to live is Christ, to die is gain. It's okay. I know where I'm going. And home for me is heaven. And you become totally resigned to this full surrender to Christ.” 

And it's something that we have a hard time sort of comprehending and particularly in the United States where we can go to church on Sunday and we can worship openly.

Greg Kelley: 
So, yeah. That's a powerful story. I love that to die is gain. Wow. That's the attitude we all need to have, how do we in the west get on alignment with that right there? That's the question we all need to ask ourselves. But Randy, hey, real quick as we're wrapping up here, what is it on a micro level, what's the price? What are these people paying? What are they willing to pay when they come out and say, I am gonna be a follower of Jesus? 

Randy: 
Well, I think I first need to follow up on what Mike said because. What Jesus called every one of us to was to leave it all and follow him. And he didn't say, that's just for folks in Djibouti.

Greg Kelley: 
Mm. That's right. That's right. 

Randy: 
If we aren't willing to leave, father, mother, sister, brother, your wealth, your business, and all the other stuff to follow him, I think Jesus would say we're not worthy to be called his disciple. And, and by the way, Randy, it's not a one-time call either, is it?

That is God's call to everybody, and if we think that somehow we can get away without paying the price, then I'm not sure we understand what it means to call Jesus Lord. If he's Lord and we're following him, it all goes to the foot of the cross. So you, you begin with a question about these people and what they pay. They're paying what Jesus said, you pay. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah, yeah. Love it. That's all. That's right. That's right. And yet when we, we hear it here in the west, I was talking to some people recently and it just, it does remind me, Mike, of something you said among the Fulani in northern Nigeria, we heard a similar story recently where a guy comes to Christ and the Imam comes to him and said, that's not acceptable.

It's not okay. The local sort of leader of the village has complete power, right? Judge, jury, executioner. And these individuals are empowered by the Imam and the first thing they do, if you wanna hurt Fulani, take away their stuff, what's their stuff? Their cows. 'Cause they got a bunch of cows, fired them from their job?

So that's the equivalent of someone coming in and just taking your 401k, your bank account, your house, your vehicle, and firing you. I mean that's a pretty painful thing. Right? And then it's like, okay, you, you need to return to Islam and no, I'm still a follower of Jesus.
Okay. I'm taking your children. They literally have the power and authority to take your children from you. Grandchildren. Just take them from you. They no longer are yours. You have no rights to them and give 'em to another family. No, I'm still a follower of Jesus. And finally, take, like you said, Mike, taking your wife and giving her to another man to be married off.

It's everything. It's everything. So again, for us in the West, we're not gonna face those kinds of things. Not now. Anyway, I don't see that day coming soon. However, we need to ask the Lord, “Lord, what does it mean to be fully surrendered, fully devoted to you, despite anything that I could face to be in alignment with that calling to be.”

All in for Jesus. So, you guys are all in for Jesus. Mike, Randy, I'm so thankful for you guys. Just the insights on the Middle East and North Africa. Super rich guys, great conversation. Let's do it again sometime. So, thanks Mike. Randy, thanks for being with us. 

Mike Grandy: 
Yeah. Thank you. 

Randy: 
Lord bless you, brother.

Greg Kelley: 
All right. Bless you guys. Well, thank you friends for joining us today on The Unknown Nations Podcast. Visit our website at UnknownNations.Com to learn more about how you can get involved. Hey, you can do us a favor. Share this podcast with friends and family. Give us a favorable rating. Subscribe and follow. Join us on this incredible journey of faith, hope, and transformation. Join us in making Jesus known at the ends of the earth, the impact that you can have is immeasurable. And together we can see God's kingdom expand to the darkest corners of the earth. God bless you, and we'll catch you next time on the Unknown Nations Podcast.