Unknown Nations Podcast

Greg Kelley: 

Well, hello everybody and welcome to the Unknown Nations Podcast, highlighting what God is doing in the most spiritually dark places in the world today. We have a wonderful guest, a good friend of mine who has been connected for over 15 years. Mark is in Nigeria and I'm going to do a proper introduction here in a moment, but I was so excited to have Mark with us.

My name, of course, is Greg Kelley, the CEO at Unknown Nations where we have the honor to serve God by helping reach the most zero access barrier ridden spiritually antagonistic spoken word reliant people groups on the planet, giving birth to the church in impossible places. And that is absolutely impossible to do without our strategy, which is our frontline strategy of mobilizing local leaders, indigenous leaders, and national leaders.

There's lots of terminology to reference them, but essentially we're talking about people that are from the same culture of our target audience, which of course is people who have never had access to Jesus. So Mark is an amazing missionary. He is an amazing teacher. He's so thoughtful, and just a real strategic brother.

And it's been our blessing to work with him for over 15 years now, Mark. So welcome to the podcast, my friend. 

 

Mark: 

Thank you, Greg. So glad to be here. 

 

Greg Kelley: 

Yeah. Well, buddy, we've had a lot of experiences together and one of the things I love about you is you're constantly sort of thinking about what is the best avenue to take the gospel into this particular group of people. You and I, we've had lots of conversations about this, but let's just help people understand maybe what the current model is like, you're in Nigeria right now. You've had a lot of experience in the Horn of Africa and really throughout so much of the north central part of Africa. In so many instances, people are being moved from these sort of population centers, like Lagos, for example, that is obviously the massive city in Nigeria and sort of engaged and missionaries come out of there. And then they're launched, in some cases, hundreds of miles away into the mission field, which is a similar culture because you have a Nigerian, that's going and sometimes that's your only avenue to do it. But just talk that through a little bit about how that sort of missionaries have been deployed, say, over the last 15 to 20 years. 

 

Mark: 

Okay. Thank you, Greg. Yes. Traditionally mission mobilization has focused on engaging Christians in areas where there's a high Christian population and casting a vision for them to move because that's what mobilization is all about.

So traditionally mission mobilization has focused on getting people to move from high concentration Christian density areas to go to places where the gospel has not been preached or where there's such a great need. And we should continue doing that. There's a need to mobilize people from areas where there are lots of Christians.

And that's basically been the model missions mobilization as far as I know, that I remember last 26 years of being involved in missions. It's been that traditional model, but I think there are more ways of seeing mobilization done that can accelerate the gospel beyond the way that we have done it.

 

Greg Kelley: 

And for us, that really has translated into, when you go back into the mid 1800s, early 1900s and in so many places and so much of Africa, including Nigeria, there was such a small Christian presence in Africa, which I've heard, by the way, it's going to be the first continent with a billion Christians. Is that what you've heard too? 

 

Mark: 

We are headed in that direction. 

 

Greg Kelley: 

Yes. Okay. So I mean, it just goes to show, if you go back to 1900 and look at Africa and the depravity of it and the spiritual darkness of it and what's happening in the last 125 years, it's just remarkable. Right?

But, to your point, a lot of it was kind of missionaries from the West, the U S and then, the UK that were being sent in. The Lord used them, in powerful ways, but they ran up against barriers. There was low hanging fruit, we'll just say, lots of victory and lots of ground taken. But then these barriers that emerged really, I think what I'm hearing you say, required a different tactic and even a tactic beyond just taking a Nigerian and the southern part of Nigeria, and saying "hey, let's shuffle you up to 400 miles north," they go up to the north. You're talking about mobilizing people closer to the front lines, aren't you? 

 

Mark: 

Absolutely. And I like what you've said, the Western missionaries that came, they really did a lot. They sacrificed so much to get the gospel planted in Africa, but there was one major aspect that was left out in their engagement with the local cultures, they didn't quite plant the seed. In most places, not everywhere, but in most places, the seed for missions was not planted along with the gospel. And so we basically received the gospel with gratitude to those who brought it to us, but we sat tight. Meanwhile, there were still hundreds because at a time, well over a thousand, you know, unreached people groups.

I think thousands of people groups that still had no access to the gospel, but the early Christians did not move it beyond because they were not mobilized right from the point of receiving the gospel to see it as their responsibility to extend it. So we're talking about helping people who are near harvest to be the ones to engage the harvest rather than move somebody thousands of miles across country or even into new countries but there could be indigenous believers or people who are nearest to these unengaged people groups, right? And then they could be catalyzed or mobilized to engage. 

 

Greg Kelley: 

I think that topic is so critical. It's like, what is it going to take when we look at we're stewarding Jesus's last words to go make disciples of all nations? We have to ask ourselves: what are the inhibitors of getting it done? And I think you hit bullseye, Mark, as far as what are the challenges or inhibitors? And that is the lack of mobilization, in the discipleship making process, it's an idea. It's almost like a transactional relationship. 

And by the way, we're not just talking about western missionaries going in because I think even Nigerians, you probably could make the case that ones in the south that have gone to the north, they've done that and they say "hey, when we come back next time we'll do this again. And you're the recipient, and I'm the deliverer of the good news." 

And praise God for some things that happened, but talk a little bit more about why that piece is so critical, that activation, if you will, of the person (who's the target) who receives Christ and now engaging them almost immediately in their role in multiplication. Why is that important? 

 

Mark: 

It's important because anybody who receives the gospel automatically becomes indebted. We are debtors to those who have not received it. The story that comes to mind, I'll give one Old Testament illustration and then a New Testament one. Nehemiah receives the burden, the vision for rebuilding the walls, and repairing the gates.

But when Nehemiah transits from Sushan (Susa) back to Jerusalem, Nehemiah did not begin to clear the rubble and put one brick on top of another. Nehemiah is a quintessential example of a frontier mobilizer. Nehemiah goes to where the work needed to be done, but he didn't begin to do the work. Rather, he mobilizes the people. He casts vision. And the people said in Nehemiah chapter 2, I think verse 18 or there about they said, "let us rise up and begin to build." So when you read Nehemiah chapter three, it's a chronicling of people who did the work and Nehemiah's name was not even mentioned while in chapter 3, he was the mobilizer.

Jesus, New testament Jesus, crosses over to the land of the gathering of the man with the legion. The demoniac comes running, Jesus casts out the demons and the man pleads with Jesus, "please, let me follow you." Jesus says no. Instantly, right there and then, Jesus commissions him into ministry. Jesus mobilizes him. This guy was demon ridden 10 minutes ago, and Jesus says "you go and be a witness. Go and tell your household what great things God has done for you." 

And the Bible says that the man went throughout Decapolis, Jesus told him to go to his household, but he didn't stop at his household. He went to 10 cities. But he was demon ridden just 10 minutes ago. And so we sometimes undermine the potential in people who previously had no exposure to the gospel. And see how they can be the carriers of the gospel to others who haven't heard. 

 

Greg Kelley: 

You know, Mark, this is such an important point. And we're talking about it in the context of global missions. It is an epidemic in the church in America as well, brother. I think the churches are filled, with people sitting in there and they're consumers. They just want to receive: "just give me some more, entertain me, give me some more, give me some more, give me some more. And next Sunday, let's do the same thing again, where I get to consume and consume." 

It's an epidemic. We have not mobilized very well here either. And I just think that if our assignment is to make disciples of all nations, it has to be modeled in the place where we are mobilizing a lot of the resources.

 A lot of resources are coming from the West. I don't think that the West is needed to finish the job. I think God can finish the job without, but I hope, my prayer is that the West is a part of it. But in the absence of it being modeled with our own eyes, I'm just afraid that we are not going to have the full role, that we have the potential because it's not being modeled here. So it's not just an issue in Africa. But I'm glad that there's people like you on the ground that are are recognizing that and the story of the demonic man is such a beautiful thing and I'd like you to maybe speak into this a little bit that he wasn't some seasoned disciple who had spent weeks and months with Jesus.

He literally gets set free, comes to know Christ, and is immediately mobilized. I think we get caught up in the like, well, read this book. You've only been saved a week or two weeks. Let's just let you grow a little bit in your Christianity. I think that concept is well intended, but I think people can be mobilized immediately because of the power of the Holy Spirit. What's your thought on that? 

 

Mark: 

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you, Greg. One of the things that God is using in this time to accelerate the gospel all over the world is disciple making movements, church planting movements where ordinary people who have become followers of Christ are immediately replicating.

They are reaching out to others who are becoming obedient disciples of Jesus, who are also reaching out immediately. I am advocating for not just the disciple making movement or a church planting movement, I'm advocating for a mission mobilizing movement where it's not just about the disciple making disciples, it's about everybody mobilized. Jesus says to go make disciples of all nations. We need all disciples to disciple all nations, not just a few. And so there's just need to continually tweak our mobilization models, such that the average person seated in church who is currently a consumer can be turned into a contributor. Somebody who's currently an audience can be turned into an army. And I think mobilization, mass mobilization is one way to achieve that. 

 

Greg Kelley: 

And I think that vision is beautiful when it comes from leadership, this idea of, "hey, this is not just for a select few people who are called into disciples of all nations. It's when you said yes to Jesus. You signed up, you're now a participant in this whole journey. And it's just a matter of asking the Lord what's your role in it." 

But I totally agree with you. If we can get a hundred percent participation across the body of Christ, we can be the generation that fulfills the Great Commission, but it's not going to happen if only 10 percent of us have an engagement in it. 

 

Mark: 

But here's something, let me throw this in, Greg, if 10 percent of us, if only 10 percent of us would rise up today, we would astronomically increase the pace at which the Great Commission would move forward. We need everyone, but the point I'm trying to make is that there's a need to strengthen those who are already in the work, but there's a need to increase the numbers of those who are involved. Can I share a story, just one or two stories about this frontier mobilization model? 

 

Greg Kelley: 

Yes, please. 

 

Mark: 

When we served in East Africa, one of the things that I observe every time I traveled to the Northern part of Kenya, I would see Christians who lived in the South, who are now living in the North, either by reason of being transferred there by their workplace, or when they're looking for business opportunities, or some students, young people who had gone to study in the North. Now the North is entirely Islamic, and so you have this Christian population who are living right in the midst of unreached peoples. Some of them are unengaged. And yet, here we are as mobilizers back in Nairobi, trying to get people to go up north, but some have already voluntarily gone up north, but without a vision. Typical example is one city, you and I have been in one of such cities together a few years back. I wouldn't mention the name, but in that city, it's about 98 percent Muslim.

But there are 72 churches in that city, but there is not one single Muslim believer or Muslim background believer in any of those churches. So, we have these numbers of churches, 72 of them, but entirely filled with people who have migrated from the south to the north, but they aren't engaging their host communities.

So my thinking is, yes, we should keep mobilizing people in Nairobi, people in the southern part of Kenya to move northwards. But I think that we can also send cross-cultural mobilizers who would move to the North with the intention of mobilizing those who are already in the North and equipping them to be the ones who reach out.

The understanding that many of them have is that, "okay, I'm just here to do business. I'm here to study, to get a degree. I'm here to work. It's my pastor's job to reach all these lost people." But if 72 pastors in that city cannot reach the, I think there are over a million Muslim inhabitants there?

 

Greg Kelley: 

Yes. 

 

Mark: 

And so everybody needs to be mobilized. 

 

Greg Kelley: 

Everybody. Yeah. Everybody. I think that's an issue also in Nigeria, of course, in Lagos as we were there recently and the main point behind this is that the people groups cluster. If Mark and I were to take you to Kenya, and say, "we're going to the Pokot," where both of us have been , we would not be swirling around Lake Victoria. We wouldn't be in Nairobi. We wouldn't even be over near Somalia. We would be in a north central area around a town called Orus that you couldn't even find on a map and around there you would begin to find Pokot people.

In other words, they're clustered in certain places and you go a little further north and you'll find the Turkana and the Borana and the Rendille, but you won't find Rendille necessarily living among the Polkats. So my point is in Nigeria, a couple of the larger people groups are called the Igbo and the Yoruba.

Now, they are scattered throughout Nigeria but primarily they live in the southern part of Nigeria and they're primarily Christian. And then you go to the northern part and you would find nations or people groups like the Hausa and the Fulani and the Kanuri that are almost exclusively in the North. So, Mark, as I spoke with Yoruba leaders and Igbo leaders who have done exactly what you just said, they've planted churches up there.

But when we did some more exploring, we discovered from them that they are Yoruba and Igbo churches of people that have moved up there and almost no Fulani, Kanuri, and Hausa. And I thought, "Okay, you're doing ministry in the North, but you're still doing it in a primarily Christian (area)." What is it about that barrier that makes that so difficult?

 

Mark: 

I think largely not many church leaders have understood the global scope of God's redemptive plan. When God told Abraham in Genesis 12:3, "that it is through you that all ‘ethne’, all the nations of the Earth be blessed." I think many people read the translation that says "it is that through you all the families of the Earth will be blessed." So, the pastor might be thinking "well, I'm blessed. My wife is blessed. My kids are blessed. All is well." 

No, it's not about families in that sense. So, most people don't understand the concept of nations. And so even when you have a church way in the North, in a city like Kano or Sokoto or Katsena or Maiduguri, totally surrounded by these people groups that don't have much access to the gospel, you can have a church there, but without any impact to reach the people, largely because of understanding, theological perspectives differ, not many people have been exposed to, you know, the biblical concept of missions in their theological training.

So, number one is understanding. Number two could be the bias or, maybe barriers that have been formed because of historical factors. There are situations that have happened in the past where Christians in the North were persecuted. Churches were burned. And so, southerners were attacked. And so, "fine, I have a church among you, but I'm not that interested in reaching out to you with the gospel because of what you've done to me in the past. You've burnt our churches." 

And so people have created these barriers and say, "okay, you just stay on your side. We'll stay on our side, so that we don't create any problems for one another." 

Thirdly, it could be that some people just don't know how. They may have a bit of understanding that, "okay, I'm here in the North to reach these people, but I don't know how. I don't know what to do. Where do I begin?" 

And then fourthly, is what we've been talking about, the pastor may actually have a vision to want to reach all these people, but he's overwhelmed because he thinks: "I'm the pastor. I have one or two evangelists working with me. We are the ones to be reaching these people." But that's not really a biblical model of ministry. It should be that the pastors and the evangelists and the faithful ministry are to train the saints, to equip the saints, so that the saints do the work of ministry. Then it will not be so overwhelming. And there may be a few other factors, but I think those are some of the reasons why you can have a church in the North, but not really reaching the indigenous people.

 

Greg Kelley: 

It's so interesting. It's been such a fight with the whole allocation of resources. You think about the southern part of Nigeria, where there's 100 million Christians, and in the North where there's 100 million Muslims and the allocation is a battle there as well. Where is the resource being deployed? Where are the individuals going? Where are the missionaries going? Where are the Bible's being sent? Where the water projects are all the wide range of resources, but I find it limiting when the attitude is such that I'm in the North and I'm doing missions in the North, and then therefore those big churches in the South, and we're just using Nigeria as an example, this is not a Nigerian exclusive thing, this is a U. S. thing, this is a global, it's quite honestly, a massive challenge in missions when the attitude is such that I'm in proximity to where those need the gospel, but I'm not doing any outreach to them. But I'm reporting back home that "yes, we're doing missions up in the work." But it's all among the Yoruba, that doesn't move the needle as far as finishing the job and to me, that is the scariest part of that is the mindset. They may be overwhelmed and they might not have the resources. They may not be trained, but if their attitude is telling them they're doing missions, I think that's where the opportunity is at and kind of educating.

And that's where you guys have done such an amazing job as you really, that whole discipling that you do such a good job. The more someone falls in love with Jesus, the more their heart's going to break for the lost around them. And I think that's where it needs to start. And when you guys do your training, you really kind of approach it with that sort of a mindset, don't you? 

 

Mark: 

Yes, absolutely. I agree with you, because mission mobilization is actually ought to be discipling. You really can't separate discipleship or disciple making from mission mobilization. Jesus did both as one. He called 12, Mark 3:14, "he called these 12 to be with him, discipling, and that he may send them out to preach missions." 

And so any discipling or discipleship process that does not produce somebody who's a laborer in the Great Commission is not complete. It may even be a deformity of what discipleship really is. And so, we need to go back to the heart of the Great Commission, which is to make disciples. So, if you are doing that cross culturally, on the other side of the planet, or you are doing that at home, the target should be how do I turn this person into an obedient follower of Jesus who multiplies himself or herself, who makes other disciples, whether they are doing that across the street or across the sea. Let me quickly add this, that it's a worldview thing. Many people, our theological or doctrinal positions at the point of salvation did not include missionary engagement, but you can't separate the two when you read the New Testament. I don't have the time to reference many scriptures, but I'll just give you one or two: 2 Corinthians 5:17 talks about "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. All things have passed away, and all things have become new."

We often stop there, but 17 is not complete without 18. Verse 18 says, "All things are of God," all things, that includes being a new creation and what is about to follow. "All of this is of God, who has reconciled us to himself and given us the ministry of reconciliation." So, you can't accept reconciliation to God without accepting the responsibility of reconciling others back to God. So the whole issue of identity, who am I as a Christian? Am I just attending church? Am I called all my life just to be a good church attender? Or is there something more, am I called to a bigger purpose, larger vision, bigger than me? Outlasting my lifetime, bigger than my geographical place of home. So I think that we need to get back to redefining who we are as Christians, our core identity, which includes a missional engagement, but also helping people to see that we are only fully living out our true identity in Christ. When we are seeing the world as He sees it and responding appropriately 

 

Greg Kelley: 

And when we talk about mobilizing people, we need an audience that is receptive to it, that is reacting to it and you guys have found in your work there not not only in Kenya, but of course in Nigeria, that you've found a group of people that there's a fire burning.

And I'm speaking of the youth. I'm talking about how young people are being mobilized really across the continent. But it's such an encouraging thing, Mark, because I think it goes back to this idea of the missionaries needing to be seasoned people and have been in church five and 10 years and had all this training, education, and all that. And that's really not the case. I want to see someone who's just on fire for Jesus, who's a student of the Word of God, is far from being perfected, is growing daily and pursuing Jesus with a reckless abandon and has courage and boldness, discernment because of the Holy Spirit. That's someone that can be molded and shaped. And a lot of times it comes in the form of the youth, doesn't it? 

 

Mark: 

Yeah. The potential of young people is yet to be explored. One of my greatest passions is studying history, especially the history of the church, the history of missions, and the student volunteer movement that erupted out of the U.S. in the late 19th century into the 20th century, leaving us with no excuse but to refocus back on the youth. That has been called the greatest mission mobilization movement in history, but I think it's just the tip of the iceberg of what could happen if we were to re-engage the youth and refocus them back on the mission of God.

Just before we began this podcast, I was in a prayer meeting with three of our staff or young people who are part of our team and we're praying passionately. And then it occurred to me in the middle of the prayer that there are four of us in this prayer meeting and we are all in different countries. And all three of them, we began to disciple them when they were university students. Different campuses. So one of them, we had taken her and their fellowship on a mission exposure trip and they wanted to go to a rich people group to do evangelism. My wife and I challenged them. We say, "no, you guys have been doing that year after year. Can we go where nobody has gone." 

They didn't even know that there were such people in their own country. So we were able to raise some support and we took 22 of them to Northern Kenya. You've been to the Tana river. We've been there together with you, Greg.

And so they spent a week there with us and they came back totally transformed. One of them now, eventually joined staff with us. And as I speak to you, she is in South Sudan, pioneering work in Northern South Sudan, not even in Juba, in the capital. The other one, a young man who finished campus in Kenya, we went together, and then moved back to his native country in the Congo and God just activated him when he got back there, the things he had received in the course of discipleship with us in Kenya, he just began to make disciples in his own country, Congo. He was with us at a prayer meeting this evening. Another young man, a totally different campus, who's been part of us. He's been praying with us every night. We have this prayer gathering , online prayer gathering. I challenged him about a month or two ago. "Look, you are done with campus now, rather than look for a job here as a teacher, where there are so many teachers and many people who are looking for teaching jobs around and the place is saturated with teachers. Why don't you consider going up north where there are no teachers, where there are schools and there are students?" And he took that seriously, prayed about it. And two weeks ago, he moved to Northern Kenya to teach in a school among the Rendille actually in Korr. Remember we were in Korr with you 10 years ago, so. And he's there now as a teacher to engage Rendilles. And I can go on and on, dozens of stories of young people who are just serving God, not necessarily with our ministry. We just want to serve the body of Christ and the missions movement as young people offer their energies to what God wants to do in this generation. 

 

Greg Kelley: 

Well, brother, we could talk all day, just so excited to have you with us and pouring in. We'll get you back on the program, but thank you so much, Mark, for investing in us. And I know lots of people are going to be inspired by your words today. Thank you for being with us. 

 

Mark: 

Thank you. It's my pleasure. Thanks for the privilege. 

 

Greg Kelley: 

Yes. Well, friends, thanks for joining us today on the Unknown Nations Podcast. Visit our website at UnknownNations.com to learn more about how you can get involved, subscribe, follow, and join us on this incredible journey of faith, hope, and transformation. The impact that you're going to have is immeasurable and together we can see God's kingdom expand in the darkest corners of the world. That does it for this episode. We'll catch you next time.