Unknown Nations Podcast

Greg Kelley:

Well, welcome to the Unknown Nations Podcast highlighting what God is doing in the most spiritually dark places in the world. Today, we have a very special guest. You have met Hope Loomis before, but Hope is gonna be joining us. She's the chief development officer here at Unknown Nations, and does an amazing job really bringing the reality of our vision to so many people around the country. I'm very excited for you to hear from hope today. And of course, my name is Greg Kelley, the CEO here at Unknown Nations where we have the honor to serve God. By helping reach the most zero access, barrier ridden, spiritually antagonistic, spoken word reliant people groups on the planet, giving birth to the church in impossible places. And I love talking about that, but it's way funner when I have someone that I can actually interact with who is passionate about it. And friends, Hope is passionate about this idea. God has put a beautiful calling on her life. She's such a blessing to us at Unknown Nations and our team. And it is a real honor for me to have her again as a guest on the podcast. So Hope, great to have you with us. 

 

Hope Loomis:

Thankful to be back. It's fun to be here. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah. You ready to talk all things Unknown Nations?

 

Hope Loomis:

It's my favorite subject as of late. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Well, I tell you what, Hope, when I think about Unknown Nations, I think about God giving his best. And I think about this word of generosity. God has called us to be generous and you think about the Lord and he gave it all. He gave his only son. How much more generous could he possibly be? So, when you're talking to people, when you think about that concept in and of itself, what God's called us and expects us to be generous, thinking that he gave everything. Does that topic ever come up for you?

 

Hope Loomis:

We talk about that a lot. It's amazing when you're working with kingdom builders and people who love Jesus, that idea of generosity, I think transcends a culture. And you see that in heart, you see that in the joyfulness of the people. And the reality is that oftentimes it feels like we can't possibly give enough to be able to equate to what he has given to us. And I think that is the beauty of sort of the upside down kingdom of Jesus in terms of he gave it all and yet he expects at the end so much littler from us. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah, I love that a lot. And the Bible is absolutely filled with concepts and ideas about generosity. Let me just share a few with you guys and we'll get Hope's reaction to some of this. But in 2 Corinthians 9:6 through 8, it talks about how God wants his people to give cheerfully, not out of obligation. In Proverbs 19:17, it says, "God will repay those who are generous to the poor." What a beautiful principle that is. Also, along in Proverbs 22:9, "God blesses those who share their bread with the poor." So many themes about just being generous with those who are less fortunate around us. Acts 20:35, now we're getting into the New Testament church, Jesus said "it is more blessed to give than to receive." Love that principle. And then in Galatians 6:2, Christians should help each other, carrying burdens. And the truth of the matter is the New Testament church, we find one of their attributes and characteristics was they sold their stuff. You're talking about radical generosity when they saw a need, it wasn't just like, "well, let me pull 20 bucks out of my pocket," but they literally would sell assets and resources so they could help people around them. Do you see evidence of that at all today? Like the generosity, or do you think that we have a little bit of work to do as far as really coaching people on what real biblical generosity is all about?

 

Hope Loomis:

I think it really comes down to the worldview of the person that you're interacting with. When people love Jesus, I think we come to a place when we recognize we own nothing. Nothing that we have is ours. Everything that we have is for a very short period of time. We are called to steward the Lord's resources. And it comes down to trust. It comes down to being wise with it. And it's not just money. It's our time. It's our energy. It's our talents. And so we want to be able to use those for the kingdom. And I think the Lord blesses that. And it's not a quid pro quo. I mean, our God is a God of abundance. And when we are generous with people, then he is also generous with us. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah, I love that. You're really describing a very holistic approach to it. And when we think about holistic, I think of it's not just about giving. I think a lot of times when people are thinking about development and fundraising, all they think about is the dollars of it and really it goes way beyond that, and the word stewardship really captures the full essence of a holistic engagement. It's giving of yourself. Most people would make the case: "the thing you have that's most valuable is your time, not even your money." It's your time that you're giving to something and of course, your heart that goes with it. So with that, Hope, we put a big emphasis at Unknown Nation on building relationship. Why is that important to you than just having someone write a check? Why is that important?

 

Hope Loomis:

Well, I think for myself, I am in the business of developing relationships for Unknown Nations. And so often in this business, you can get tagged as a fundraiser: "oh, look out, you better cover your wallet, Hope is coming." And the reality is that we want to deepen relationships. We want to know your family. We want to be united in prayer about the things that are critical, quite frankly, not to what we consider to be important, but what the Lord considers to be important. So at Unknown Nations, with our laser focus to be able to bring the gospel to people without access, we want to unite with other people who say, "you know what, if that was the thing that the Lord said last, that is the thing that I want to be united about with, and I want to unite myself with other people." So at Unknown Nations, one of the things that I appreciate is that we're really looking at it holistically. We want to laugh together. We want to pray together. We want to build community together around God's common purpose to bring his word to all the nations. 

And for us, like you said, it's a laser focused on these places around the world. We're working in over 35 countries. Our outposts are just impacting the entirety, 9,000 miles from Senegal and West Africa, all the way to the Philippines and Indonesia. And of course, that's in the 10/40 window. Those are the places where the gospel's not at. And I mean, internationally, just needing a passport, you can feel a disconnect. All the more so, when we're talking about Kathmandu, or Jakarta, or some place that most people would be like where in the world is that? We want to connect people and make them feel part of the story of what God is doing in the field among the Bengali people, among the Rohingya people, among the Yadav people. So how? How do we do that? Because that is such a unique aspect baked into our culture of really connecting people relationally, not just with us here, at our headquarters and our staff domestically, but we want to help make the connection to the field, the people. Why is that important?

 

Greg Kelley:

I think it's important because Jesus called us two by two with relationship and discipleship building. And so we want to bring that experience that happens on field in the 65 - 66 countries that we work all the way through. So what that means is it can come through storytelling. It can come through video. We have a wonderful resource where people can sign up to receive texts and emails for prayer weekly. And that prayer is focused on real needs of real people groups that we are working with on a daily basis who lack access to the gospel. And oftentimes really have the worst of both worlds. They don't know Jesus and their physical conditions, in terms of what they are fighting are unimaginable. So when you can connect the two of them, so people, just like with kids, we pray for our kids with intentionality. We also want to pray for, for instance, people groups with intentionality. 

And when we talk to people and we're talking about the business terminology, ROI. People are interested in that. They want to know they have a lot of options. And let me just say, friend, if you are connected with us, we are very grateful for you and just want to thank you for being a part of what really God is doing. But I also want to assure you, whether you're connected with us or not, or just even in your giving in general, measure the things that really matter. The fact that you might be a part of putting a hundred new water wells in, that's great. You help people get clean water. I can tell you this, if that doesn't lead ultimately to a point of introduction or connection or opportunity for someone to have a relationship with Jesus or strengthen that in some way, all you're doing is making people more comfortable on their way to eternity. And that doesn't feel like a very good investment to me. So for us, we're measuring the things we feel that would matter to the heart of the Lord. He told us, "don't just make converts, make disciples." But we want to know what is the spiritual impact of it? Do you find that people really value that as it's part of what we're sharing with them? Hope, do you find that people appreciate that when you're talking to them?

 

Hope Loomis:

We love to be able to give people that type of data that type of stories, in terms of what is the difference of your gift. We all want to be valued. We all want the opportunity for impact, so that when we know at night that because of you, X number of churches were planted, or 1,000 people heard the word of God for the very first time, in a particular house, a village in northern Nigeria. That is impactful. And you mentioned business, as a businesswoman, you want to look at areas of impact. So when I'm investing a dollar, I look at what my rate of return is every month. I'm not comfortable with a 2 percent rate of return. I'm not comfortable in this case of taking a people group that is 98 percent Christian and moving it just to 100%. We all are limited in terms of our resources. So I would rather use that dollar, to move a people group from 0 percent to 5 percent, or to 10 percent over time, and really see that multiplication and that mobilization of leaders. So at Unknown Nations, we look at all types of data from the field, from the number of treasures distributed, the number of people who've heard the word of God for the very first time, the number of people discipled, the number of leaders trained. That's significant because then we can multiply and mobilize those for the indigenous church planting movements. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah, I'm thinking about the parable where Jesus has some pretty harsh words for the servant who took their talents and just buried them. And I think about, from a standpoint of what does that mean, the application for us in missions? I think that Jesus didn't die just so that we would conserve the harvest. But he died so that we would take ground. And I think to your point, Hope, is that people who are investing in Unknown Nations, it's not just about like, "hey, we have a hundred Christians and we're just protecting them and trying our hardest and keeping them safe," no, we're actually going to those hundred and saying, "okay, you're a hundred today. Now we expect you to be 200 next week or next month, or in other words, you need to multiply." Why do you think the message, in the context of stewardship of multiplication becomes important?

 

Hope Loomis:

I think that multiplication is that exponential way to be able to bring the message. And I also think when you are always on the receiving end of a relationship, You actually lose a key component that drives joy and heart. The idea that it is more blessed to give than to receive. There is nothing that makes me more joyful than watching someone open a gift or come to know Jesus for the first time, or that time when you've invested in a relationship. So we take that very practically here at Unknown Nations to say, how can we multiply and mobilize so that you also have the benefit and the joy of replicating yourselves and allowing somebody else to receive the word of Jesus because you have come to know that for the very first time. The alternative would be that when you're teaching someone to solely be a receiver, you're actually depriving them of the joy that God gave them to actually be a giver. So, I think that that's one of the key points that I find so refreshing about what we do, is we don't come to an area, to a new village, just to say, "hey, we're here. You know, let us just equip you but we are equipping you so that you now have a responsibility a calling to go ahead and equip others." 

 

Greg Kelley:

And I love it that we pay so close attention to what God is doing in the field from the perspective of the growth, because when you come into a place, it's like A. W. Milne. I love that story so much. He was in the era of the one way missionaries knowing that he's going to this cannibal, ferocious tribe that no one had had success before him. And yet it says on his tombstone, when he dies, that "when he came, there was no light. When he left, there was no darkness." That is it. That is a change, a fundamental change in the harvest field. And one of the things I love about what we do at Unknown Nations is we assess the condition of the field. It's just like Paul when he said, "it's my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ is not known rather than on someone else's foundation." So Paul was constantly assessing the condition. He'd go into a place just like A. W. Milne. Total darkness brought the light. And then what did he do? He uprooted himself and repurposed his precious resources Into another place and when we're talking to people we tell them we are committed to that process of assessing the field. So when Christ becomes known, we are repurposing. Why do you think that message becomes important to people who are investing in Unknown Nations?

 

Hope Loomis:

I think that message demonstrates a respect and a stewardship for that particular gift. We recognize that resources are limited. And so we want to be good stewards of that. The other common thing when you're in this business is "man, like I feel like I'm always giving x dollar amount every year," and a year later you come back, and you do it the same. And there many times there feels like there is no end in sight. I think one of the things that we do so well is that we measure success expecting an ending. We want every nation where we go to be able to start an indigenous church planting movement, such that there are internal resources in those particular nations, so that they can continue to equip and multiply and mobilize. And then there is no greater joy than to be able to say to John and Judy Smith, because of you, this nation came to know Jesus for the very first time. And there is a completion aspect. There is a well done good and faithful servant on that. And so that reallocation becomes very critical. So it doesn't feel like we are doing the same thing year in year out with no end in sight. 

 

Greg Kelley:

I am so proud of our organization for doing that because it's not the easiest thing. If that message that Hope just articulated is not preset and built into the framework of the relationship, it becomes very hard and it looks like, "why are you abandoning us? How could you leave us? We've started so much momentum. These new Christians, I don't know if they'll make it without you." There's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of manipulation, quite honestly, that can happen if it's not set on the front end of like, "hey, listen. We expect you guys to multiply. And as you do, we are going to celebrate. And then just like you're growing here, we need to go into places that looked like you 10 or 15 years ago." If that conversation doesn't take place on the front end, it becomes a much more difficult conversation. Most models, they set up the beachhead and they stay forever. Why do you think they do that? What's your personal opinion on that?

 

Hope Loomis:

I think many times it becomes a familiarity. You've been there. There's a relationship: "I really like you. I get joy coming to a location that I know well, that I've become to establish relationships." We're all relationship driven, rather than saying, you know what, now that you know, we can do this together. We have seeded this in you and now you have the same responsibility that I have, to be able to go to new territory. And Paul is a good example of that. You were right. And in Romans 15 , he talks about, "I recognize there are poor people in Jerusalem, and I recognize there are non believers in Judea. However, because of this ambition to preach the gospel where the name of Christ is not known, I need to go to Spain." Because the people in Spain at that particular point of time in the world did not know Jesus, would have said "maybe he lives over the sea." Had no understanding of who he was. And so as believers, I hope that there is a fire inside of us to say, "it breaks my heart. This is the ultimate injustice. The ultimate injustice is that people will go cradle to grave and never have one opportunity to experience the living God, to know the Word of God." And that, as believers who value our relationship with Jesus, should break our heart. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah, absolutely. It should motivate us. It should drive us. That's what keeps us engaged at Unknown Nations, on a daily basis, because we know that is the reality for so many places. And I think I just want to piggyback a little bit off of what Hope said, because hear us friend, it's well intended. The fact that you may have been on a short term mission trip to Haiti for the last 10 years in a row, we are honoring you, we are blessing you, and we're saying that those relationships you've built in a place like that, that's good. That is a kingdom at work. But what we'd also say to you, and where we're going to kind of transition in our conversation, is don't only do that. Don't only do that. Don't drop your anchor down. We wrote a book called, Last Four Words. And in it, one of our chapters, we talk about fishing. Jesus, what he called the disciples. He said, "I'll make you fishers of men." So I like that Hope. I like that. I like the fishing metaphor. But in it, there's a difference between fishing with a trolling motor, which would be the Romans 15:20 version, which is Paul uprooting and moving on versus fishing with an anchor. And I think a lot of times, we drop the anchor down and we stay there for long periods of time. Now, are we catching fish? Well, in Michigan, there's a lot of bluegill and with my grandkids, I can throw a fishing pole out with a bobber and a hook and 10 feet away. They can catch fish all day long. Right? So it's not that there's not fish. The point is the other fish will never get touched if I'm not pulling that anchor up and moving course with my trolling motor. So I like that. Anything else that, that comes to mind, Hope, when you think about, even from a standpoint of, "well, I've been giving there forever." What are some of the things that someone should evaluate when they're supporting something financially or praying for something when it comes down to the idea of, "hey, okay, now that you're making disciples there, maybe, you should be resourcing in other places where there's still a ton of work that needs to be done yet."

 

Hope Loomis:

I think Jesus' last four words there are very critical for us as believers to look at because he really did give us a recipe in terms of how he wanted us to divide, not just our financial resources, but our time, our prayers, our energy, when he talks about "waiting for the power of the Holy spirit, and then go and make disciples in Jerusalem, our local community and Judea. And Samaria and the ends of the earth." And what I love about that particular verse is that he wasn't saying that one is less important than the other, that word "and" becomes so powerful that we need that opportunity to be able to give of ourselves in each of these areas. The reality today is that the ends of the earth really do get the table scraps, really do get the leftovers. So the people that lack access to the gospel are literally getting dollars in comparison to thousands of dollars left over, where in terms of giving in other places. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah, that verse in Acts 1:8 is so powerful. And I love it. When we talk about those four different quadrants, it's crazy to think that it is truly the last thing that Jesus said. And when we talk about that, we talk about people that you would love that you would have known. I happened to be at my grandparents, two of them, their deathbed, and watch them take their last breath. It was a powerful moment and hearing the last things that come out of their mouth. You're leaning in. You want to know "what is it, what is the parting words that they're saying?" They recognize it's the last thing they'll say. You're going to be the recipient of it. You want to know it's powerful for Jesus to give us that instruction: "and the ends of the earth," last four words. It means it's a priority to him. And to Hope's point, it really has not been to the extent that it needs to be. First of all, let's talk about, Hope, when we say "ends of the earth," what do we mean by that? If someone were to go, "oh, yeah ends of the earth, I'm going to Guatemala and you would not believe how remote it is where we're flying into. It's in the middle of the jungle." How would you lovingly talk to that person?

 

Hope Loomis:

I would define "ends of the earth" as the areas that lack access to the gospel, the areas that are the most spiritually antagonistic. We are blessed at an age and at a time that there is data about anything and everything. There's a great resource, Joshua Project, that can identify by nation, by people group, where these people are who lack access to the gospel. We know that 90 percent of them live in an area of the world called the 10/40 window in the Eastern hemisphere. And these are nations that there is no missionary over there coming back to the local church to tell them all the good work they are, cause there's no missionary there to begin with. There are no Bibles in their language in a way that they can have access to them through the oral word. That's why our solar powered audio Bibles are so important. And in that area of the world, there is one pastor, one trained leader for every 450,000 people. And so, that in comparison to the United States where there's a pastor for every 200 - 250 people is a significant difference. This is why the multiplication and mobilization in those areas of the world become critical. And that is something that we are focused on.

 

Greg Kelley:

When I read a book called Unveiled at Last, a number of years ago, the Lord really used this, this is now over 20 years ago, to really put the seed inside of my heart. You want to talk about social justice issues? Is there anything more significant than someone not having access to the gospel? Hope and I are not talking about people who have rejected Jesus. It could be a Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim. The fact that they don't have access is what really triggers that category of "ends of the earth," because we all know there's going to be people who have been exposed to the gospel and have just refused it. They've got that hard heart. So they need to be a priority. Hear what we're saying, but the attention is not being given. When I was reading recently, Hope, about the giving, because I think that when you start talking about if something's a priority, we track everything now. And when I read this book Unveiled at Last, I learned about the plight of hundreds of millions of people without access to the gospel, I was just like, "oh my gosh, well, certainly it has to be a priority," I thought to myself. And sure enough, the book addressed it, and as I was reading, it gave a nice little comparison, it said that, "oh yeah, here's how big of a priority it is to us in the west, in the church: we are spending more resources on Halloween costumes for our pets than what we are given to these guys who don't have access." And when I read that, something happened inside of me. And I thought, "this is just wrong. This is not right. I want to be a messenger. I want to be an ambassador of this message." And that's what you and I are stewarding today. But from a dollars and cents standpoint today, just to piggyback off on what Hope said, about 270 billion dollars, that's a lot of money are given to Christian causes. And out of that only 9 dollars of every $10,000 goes to the 10/40 window. And we're talking about a third of the world, Hope, that is the ends of the earth. What does that do to you when you hear that? And when you talk to people about that, do their mouths like hit the table? 

 

Hope Loomis:

You're right. The money follows what we consider to be a priority. And when we don't have an appreciation of the ends of the earth, of the fact that people lack access, we don't have the ability to be able to prioritize them. And as kingdom builders, as believers. We need to make that very last thing that Jesus talked about that particular priority. I think it's interesting that study you referenced that talks about that there are more money for Halloween costumes for pets than on areas without access to the gospel. Friends, we're not actually talking about, "hey, give more money." We're talking really about reallocating our money because there was a great missionary back in the 1990s called Ralph Winters, and he was way more well schooled than either of us here on this call. And he wrote his PhD and did lots of different lectures. And somebody in one of these lectures raised his hand and said, "Dr. Winters, what is stopping us? We have the data. What is stopping us from being the generation that finishes the Great Commission?" And Dr. Winters said: "allocation, or rather reallocation." Because friends, there is right now more than 30 times the amount of resources in play to be able to finish the Great Commission. But quite frankly, we are allocating them poorly. We are not taking good stewardship of them to say, "what is the best use for this dollar, for these 10, 000 dollars." So, for every hundred thousand dollars that a Christian in America earns today, they spend a $1.83 on areas without access to the gospel. Less than one Starbucks cup of coffee by far. So, if we can just think about reprioritizing that a little bit differently, then we can be the generation that finishes the Great Commission. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Hope and I want to welcome you and encourage you into that journey with us. Hope, I could talk for hours on this topic. Love it so much and so grateful for your passion, enthusiasm, the calling God's put on your life. Thanks for being with us, of course, at Unknown Nations and on the podcast today.

 

Hope Loomis:

Happy to be here. Thanks so much. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Well, friends, thanks for joining us today on the Unknown Nations Podcast. Visit our website at UnknownNations.com to learn more about how you can get involved, subscribe, follow, join us on this incredible journey of faith, hope, and transformation. Join us in making Jesus known at the ends of the earth. The impact that you can see is immeasurable, and together we will see God's kingdom expand into the darkest corners of the world. That does it for this episode, we'll catch you next time on the Unknown Nations Podcast.