Unknown Nations Podcast

Greg Kelley:

Well, hello everybody, and welcome to the Unknown Nations Podcast, highlighting what God is doing in the most spiritually dark places in the world today. Ah, man, am I excited about a very special guest, dear friend of mine and board member here at Unknown Nations John Gruders, who I'm going to introduce to you more appropriately here in a second. But my name is Greg Kelley. I have the privilege of serving at Unknown Nations where we have the honor to serve God by helping reach the most zero access, barrier ridden, spiritually antagonistic, spoken word reliant people groups on the planet, giving birth to the church in impossible places.

And friend, it is impossible for those things to happen without the bride of Christ, the body of Christ responding and just simply doing an inventory and saying, "look, the resources, the tools that you've given me, Lord, how can I deploy them for your glory in bringing the name of Jesus to the places where he's unknown?"

And John, I can't think of a better example of that. This guy inspired me. He's really become just a very dear friend and agreed to serve a little arm wrestling, maybe to be on the board at Unknown Nations, but he is a blessing to us in so many ways. John, great to have you with us, buddy.

 

John Grooters:

Arm wrestling? Your memory is sharper than mine. If there's been arm wrestling, good to be here, Greg, happy to do it. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Well, I think from the perspective of you are such a busy guy, John, but when I hear that word, it stings me because we're all busy, but people that are busy on point really inspire me.

And that to me defines you at Grooters Productions. You are a filmmaker, you're an author, you have done animation, you are a musician, on and on it goes. But of the many things you've done, John, maybe why don't we start there? Tell me what has been the most inspiring, impactful project that you've been a part of in the last 10 years or so?

 

John Grooters:

Yeah. Wow. Thank you for that wonderful introduction. So much of the work we've done in the last 20 years has been coming alongside incredible ministries, missionaries, world things. So how much have I learned doing 80 episodes with Ray Vanderlaan, literally walking almost every square inch of the Bible as he taught it?

How much did I learn from Ken Ham when we did 50 films for the Creation Museum and for the Ark Encounter. Introducing me to a world of creation science that I had never explored, couldn't have had an articulate conversation with you, but it was life changing. How much have we learned about marriage and relationships?

We work with Gary Chapman, the author of the Five Love Languages. One of the best selling books in the history of the world. It's been a bestseller since the 90s. Gary is in his 80s and the kindest, most genuine Christian counselor. And apps that we've developed at our company that I didn't have anything to do with, except very minimally have literally been used by millions and millions of people who are trying to put their marriages into a godly path and then now, recently working with a missional agency called the Voice of the Martyrs, who is out there just telling the stories of persecuted Christians, not letting us forget, not letting us pretend that our brothers and sisters are not paying the price for their faith, and we don't want to ignore them, even if we feel somehow protected and immune by our borders.

So, the project that is really strong in my mind, I'm sitting in Berlin right now. I'm in Germany, a half a mile from Checkpoint Charlie and the Berlin Wall. So very near me right now is this reminder every day of what the world was like when the east and the west of Germany were divided by an impenetrable wall.

And what evil it was, and build that wall and the movement of communism around the world following World War II. And the films that we did recently for the Voice of the Martyrs, one was called Tortured for Christ, which was the Richard Wurmbrand story, a book he wrote by the same name had been released in 1967.

For the 50 year anniversary of that in 17, we did a movie of that name. And then a second film came out a few years ago called Sabina: Tortured for Christ - The Nazi Years, which was a prequel. And why so impactful? Well, shot in Romania, it was very artistic. It was really fun to have a fantastic cast and crew and be doing good work and cinema.

But also, I don't know anybody that could be more inspiring as ambassadors for Christ. Yeah. And Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand, 14 years in communist prisons, tortured every single day and absolutely sharing Christ's love every step of the way. Yeah. And just impossible situations humanly.

They would agree. You can't love your enemies in your own flesh. Yeah. Only Christ in you. Yeah. Could do it. And the cool thing about Sabina, which I didn't know when I did the first movie, is the story of how Richard and Sabina became kind of Protestant saints.

Because they started out as atheists and hedonists and communists, and she was kicking and screaming, opposed to Jesus. Not only did they fall in love with each other, and then the story is how they fall in love with each other, and then he kind of meets God, and kind of brings her kicking and screaming, and then ultimately they become this amazing couple living out the Christian faith at the highest levels.

And doing impossible things that challenge me and challenge you. And so you see this, this whole arc, this pathway, and at Unknown Nations, we're meeting people in the pre stage in the before picture, right? Right. They might not even be knowledgeable enough to be atheists.

It's not like they, in our case, haven't rejected the gospel. They haven't even heard the gospel, but my goodness, the length of the field a person can go and you have incredible stories, we've done some of them together about how far the, to use a cinema term, the story arc is.

In the life of a person who's living on the same earth, respondent to gravity and air, but living apart from God and his revelation, what they're all about how evil their heart, how completely dominated by Satan and his influences, how far that person can turn when Christ washes them and starts over with them, and these aren't just stories written in Aesop's fable books.

We're reading and telling the testimonies of people like that all the time. And it just challenges us. Maybe for sure. Yeah. Our arc is big, but maybe not as big. Like, yeah, it's all been saved and redeemed from sin, but maybe not from mass murder and ever. So…

 

Greg Kelley:

That's beautiful, buddy. You've been exposed to so much. Way more than the average person. You just got back from a project in Central Africa and your team's working on and your team's been with us to Pakistan. We've been in the brick kilns together, really capturing the story.

We've been in India, which over a billion Hindus, and soon to be the thing most people don't realize, John, is when you talk about the epicenter of missions, it's got to be India because there will be more Muslims in that country than any other place in the world within the next, they say, 20 to 25 years, the same time having over a billion Hindus.

And of course, most recently Nigeria. Where more Christians are killed for their faith in Christ in Northern Nigeria than the rest of the world combined, which is a staggering statistic.

But you and I have been friends for a while and as you've been serving on the Unknown Nations board and just having a worldview that is unique, as I said. What is it, John, about Unknown Nations that, for you and Judy, obviously there's lots of opportunities you guys have, what sort of spoke to you guys and said, “yes, we're, we're going to invest a part of ourselves into this, our limited availability, if you will, this is worthy for us to invest in”? What was it about that that made you make that decision? 

 

John Grooters:

It's a great question. And now I have a better answer having been walking alongside Unknown Nations for five years on the board now, I think at the start, the question was, “well, are we really included in the great commission or was that for the 12 guys there on the Hill before the Ascension?”

I know Jesus gave them the job. And so am I just supposed to cheer that and believe in it? And yeah, I went into all the world to make disciples and then he went up into the clouds and right off the Mount of Olives there. Or was he talking to me and my wife and in our lives and our careers, and I think that question for every Christian is a pretty easy answer.

Hey, it's not, it wasn't just meant for those 12. We're part of that, that call. And so when we put that in front of a believer and say, "hey, are you about this?" Even in the sort of negative, will you have an answer if the Lord says, "hey, man, what did you do with my son?" 

"Well, I accepted [him] as savior."

"And did you carry out what he asked you to do?" 

“Yeah.”

“Meaning what exactly? In which way would you like to say?" 

But yeah, no, I think we have to be responsible for trying to make disciples. And, and so then how? Where and how? And the challenge to try to reach the places that are the hardest to reach, first of all, it's a high bar. It's challenging and the cost is high. 

And those disciples who took that challenge seriously too, maybe with the exception of John, were martyred in the attempt, but along the way, they fulfilled the Great Commission and they planted seeds and they changed the world.

And the thing that I liked about Unknown Nations five years ago, and I haven't wavered on that is, you and the board and the staff. We're not all that clever and we're not trying to be all that clever. It's the Word of God that does the work. And so the strategy is well why don't we get somebody who speaks the language and knows the culture?

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah. 

 

John Grooters:

And empower them to walk into that culture and share the gospel, not in a three day seminar where everyone takes a lot of notes by giving it to them and how to give it to them well, the best thing we've found yet is this little audio player that's solar powered and it's in their own language because whoever brings it is gonna leave.

It's like Paul left. He didn't stay in Corinth. He didn't stay in Ephesus. He didn't stay in Laodicea. He left. These places as our strategy has outlined when one of our missionary partners goes in and brings this little box that speaks their language and they start listening to it. We've kind of done our job. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Mhm. Mhm. 

 

John Grooters:

It's kind of up to the Holy Spirit to take it from there.

 

Greg Kelley:

Yup, right. 

 

John Grooters:

And what I don't know that I would believe it if I was just reading it in the magazine or hearing the podcast, but I've been on the phone with these guys multiple times. I have seen through these videos that we've had a privilege to work with you: how the Word of God doesn't return void. Man, it just explodes. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah. 

 

John Grooters:

And you come back a year later, and they know the Bible better than you and I do. Why? They listen to it 12 hours a day for the last 365 days. I'm pretty devoted when the pastor reads the three verses on Sunday, man. I'm right there. They are playing that thing all day long. Well, they work in the brick kilns all night long. And they're not as polluted with as many immediate distractions as we are. So they, the Word of God, take root in them. And then what happens, they don't just hoard it. They share it and they spread it. So, we're not that complicated. We're not trying to be that clever. God's Word is God's Word.

And I think that that is a great thing for us as a, whatever you want to call it, but a missional agency. we're not trying to argue the different nuances or the things that have divided the church for years. We could argue about the color of the carpeting supposed to be in Heaven. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah. 

 

John Grooters:

In order to get in, if it makes sense to do something godly and humanitarian, to give a cup of cold water, it's pretty clear Jesus says, “when you give a cup of cold water in my name, or when you visit somebody, you've done this to me.” So, let's dig a well, if they can use a well. We found in Northern Nigeria, not only did we dig the well, but then the leading kind of witch doctor of the community got ahold of a treasure, realized this was true. And now if you want to come by and use it as well, you have to listen to the treasure. 

 

Greg Kelley:

No, exactly.

 

John Grooters:

Great strategy the guy thought of. And now, even in the Hausa people, the most strict Muslim caretakers of the faith, people coming to Christ within the last 12 months. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Isn't that beautiful?

 

John Grooters:

Incredible. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah. It's powerful. You touched on this idea and that we've done our part, which I know you're not trying to be casual about it, but there's so much truth to that because we have our role and recognize that we are getting the Word of God to some of these people. But even you just recently experienced something I think really accentuates a point and I know one of your projects was about a certain area, but it was too hot, literally too hot, like dangerous we'll just say, because there was like active fighting going on to be in on site there. So you have to create a similar sort of environment nearby.

But the point of that is you didn't go in there because of how dangerous it was. And you guys didn't really want to get kidnapped or anything, not that you're fearful or not bold or anything like that, but it's from a smart standpoint, “hey, I need my camera crew to be safe so we can capture the story and then tell the story.”

But at least to the point, well, who's going to go in there and tell, because somebody needs to go in there and it's not a question of "Are you going to do it?" because there's actually someone else who's very well positioned to do that and they quite honestly are eager to do so. They're ready. The picture I've painted, John, you're the best storyteller I've ever been around but I tell people to imagine 9/11, that horrific day that we all have visuals of and we saw two movements of people. We saw the people that were coming out of the cloud bloom. They were staggering. They were filled with dust and ashes and dirt, disoriented... They just were trying to get away from whatever it was that just happened.

They didn't really have an understanding. Was there an earthquake? Was there a bomb? They just didn't have an understanding. It was just chaos. And they were trying to get away from danger. And the other movement was people running into harm's way, not knowing what it was, realizing that through the screaming, and I can't even imagine the terror that would have been in their minds. Yet intentionally, they were rushing in there to save and rescue people. And I think of our indigenous network in that way. I think they're the ones who are going into these places where people are being killed for Jesus, where people are being thrown in prison, like Richard Warnbrandt and tortured and all kinds of things.

And you've seen that up close and personal. What stirs inside of you, John, you've been around the church a long time, when you think about these people and how positioned they are from a strategic nature to do exactly what Jesus called us to do? 

 

John Grooters:

You'll remember his name. One of our indigenous partners in Northern India, where you were just talking about where there are very remote areas, very, I'll use the word dark areas. Where they haven't been welcomed and in India, actually, the penalty for proselytizing is severe, and it's gotten worse lately. So, there's all kinds of risks.

The people don't want you, they'll probably kill you if they see you. If the government finds out what you're doing, you're in prison at best. And so you asked the question of our indigenous partners, so how do you feel when you're ready to walk into that village? And I'm thinking it's dark, and it's night, and I'm kind of putting myself in his shoes, like "man, I'm going to be faithful, Lord protect me, but if not, I would be all serious."

And you said, "how do you feel, um, when you're about to walk into that, that moment?" And he says, "oh, it's real fun. Oh, it's a joy." I cannot. I'm like, it's the last thing I expect to hear. Oh, it's real fun. And you gotta be kidding me. 

And I sometimes think, man, the measure of grace that people have experienced, that I just long for. I have never had that, that incredible joy that maybe I could tell my Uber driver about Jesus. No, I just don't want him to hurt me usually? 

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah. 

 

John Grooters:

Right. Partners have joy in the sharing. I was in Nepal working on a different film project not too long ago, but you put me on to an Unknown Nations partner in Nepal, so I went to his church and we made friends and I brought him some boots because he had broken his foot.

These great Michigan made Merrell boots. And I realized that in Nepal, like so many of the places where we work, proselytizing Christians are not exactly encouraged. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Mhm. For sure. 

 

John Grooters:

And so I'm kind of like, "wow, you guys are boldly having this church and hope people don't know we're worshiping." And he's like, "what are you talking about? I've planted 38 churches. I'm going out next week to plant another one." 

 

Greg Kelley:

Right. Right. 

 

John Grooters:

So the courage they have is otherworldly. The joy that I've seen. No, that's not to be disrespectful, like it's easy or they don't suffer because at the same time, you have yourself flown back and spoke with 10 widows who were widowed just because their husbands had crossed the line in the country where they lived and started sharing Jesus. 

I don't want to overemphasize either side of that. The Lord may call them. And then the Bible says regarding the martyrs for Christ that the world wasn't worthy. And so, now our faith kicks in and we think, "man, I got to believe that, that commitment that they took. If I think the guy is joyful now, what they're like in the presence of the King, who's going to hold them in the highest regard. That's something to hold on to. It's inspiring, man. 

 

Greg Kelley:

When I think of those guys, I think of the paradox of, you'd say, "well, let's, let's get the strongest among them. The person who's been in Bible college the longest, who may be healthy, a real scrapper and ready to just take them on."

And actually scripture would give a different account. Hey, yes, the person being on fire for Jesus first and foremost, but I love what it talks about in 2 Corinthians where Jesus said, "my grace is sufficient for you, and my power is made perfect in weakness." Like, which is like, what? And I think it's that posture of like, Lord, in this hostile environment, in my own strength, I can do nothing.

Like, I can do nothing. And literally, whether it's in Nepal, or Northern Nigeria, or India, just some of the places we've just mentioned here. It's this idea of the surrendering of the servant into the master's hands. And that is the perfect vessel to be used by Jesus. 

 

John Grooters:

Amen to that. And Paul did say that. And yet I will just bring up, I think a complimentary point: the guy who said that was maybe the most educated guy of the century. So I've been thinking about this lately and this comes up a lot, when it was time for God to build a dwelling place in Genesis. He builds the tabernacle and he didn't just magically inspire a bunch of Levites who couldn't even pound a nail, and all of a sudden they created a masterpiece. He searched and brought in the two greatest craftsmen of the generation in order to build his house. And it's not like we are qualified for his work, but every bit of Bible study that they do, every bit of missional training that they do, every bit of pursuit of righteousness or purity or a skill, and, and I don't like to go, I've just been here working on a screenplay and I'm thinking about one of the great composers of all time, in my view, Johann Pachelbel, and I'm diving into his life. And he's one of these artists that knows that the better he gets at his craft, the more God could give him something. 

And so now we're starting training centers, right? And so weakness compared to God, of course, we're just worms. But the answer to that is then, "oh, well then I don't need to study. I don't need to learn. I don't need to discipline myself. I don't need to learn a new language." Quite the opposite, man, become an expert in that language. The more of the Bible can pour out of us. Just wherever you prick us, if the Bible pours out, more likely when Satan tempts us, he's going to get scripture as a response.

 

Greg Kelley:

Yep, exactly. 

 

John Grooters:

So, this equipping we're doing now, and I guess that's a transition in a way, because we do bring Treasures into the darkest of places. But now, this new emphasis of, hey, can we actually empower people who have come to Christ. I love that God and man in partnership, he could do it all by himself, doesn't choose to. We can do a lot of things on our own, but that's not really how you partner with the growth of the Kingdom. And so that, that partnership of equipped people, if it all depends upon you, praise, if it all depends upon God, I think there's truth in.

 

Greg Kelley:

Yeah. I love it. I love what you said about Paul. He says I'm the Pharisee of Pharisees. So he was plucked out of the religious elite who were educated. Yet, he was unique in the standpoint that he recognized, even in that strength, it required his submission in the weakness of humanity for the Lord to be perfected.

 

John Grooters:

And he walks into the trade centers, he doesn't run the other direction. They throw him off the mountain at Lystra and he walks right back into town. Like the guy was brilliant, but not very bright. Socrates has been basically executed by the Areopagus. He doesn't walk around. He goes right in there and takes them on all by himself. Think about Ephesus. They're screaming in a mob and he wants to go address them. Paul's a run towards the World Trade Center kind of guy. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Wow. Well, when we're wrapping up here, John, we're getting ready to release a very special project that you have designed and an architect, the Lord has just used you.

And speaking of places that are religious, this is maybe one of the most religious places in the world. And of course we are talking about Nigeria, which is a crazy blend friend. It's like, you're talking about the most populated country in the entire continent of Africa. The Southern part is almost exclusively Christian, a hundred million Christians. Churches in every direction, more so than West Michigan or the Bible belt where Christianity has flourished. And then you go North and you will meet a hundred million Muslims and mosques in every direction. It is religion upon religion.

Yet the guys in the North have never heard the message of salvation through Jesus Christ. They know of Jesus, but they don't know Jesus as the savior, as the one who gave himself for them. So when we think about this project, John, what has excited you? I know we've talked about the difference between country and people group, and Nigeria is such a beautiful explanation and a place to do a deep dive to really dig into that and extract out.

Yeah, we need to understand the difference between the Kanuri and the Fulfulde, and the Hausa that you mentioned, and then also these guys called the Yoruba in the south and the Igbo that are majority Christian. So what about that project maybe, has kind of hit you as you have been a part of editing and preparing it?

 

John Grooters:

Well, there's a lot of things and it's fun to just learn like just editing and working on these. But there's a lot to learn and it's interesting, but there's two big things that I think are fascinating: one is like you said the north is godless in terms of Christianity. It's godless followers of Islam and even then they don't really know why in most cases and it's a very unreached area as far as the hope of Christ.

And so, yes, strategies need to be done by people like Unknown Nations who are radically finding credible fruit because- But the other thing that's interesting, and I'm not a historian, you could teach me a lot about this. Somebody went to Southern Nigeria 100 years ago and found a hostile culture, probably died (the first generations of missionaries that went in there).

And somebody back home said this isn't worth it. We just sent our good daughter or husband or son or friend into someplace, and they didn't leave. But somebody persisted. And oh, my goodness, you look at these places in Africa today that are the fruit of the missions that were consistent 100 years ago, and it is incredible and whole cultures and not only are there churches on every corner, but there is prosperity in those places. You can see economic prosperity in the places in Africa that embrace the gospel. Now, no, it doesn't look like Geneva, Switzerland yet. 

But even in Europe, and even around the world, a friend of mine who is a professor was doing a study on the differences between the cultures that embraced the Reformation and those that rejected it.

What does it do for your whole, your own person? But it also can do it for a family, a community, and even a whole culture. And so not only is the South rich in its spiritual heritage and there's explosions of churches everywhere, not in every case perfect, there's never been a perfect church, there certainly wasn't in Jesus's day and they're working on that. They have the Bible, but I'm still thinking "well, what's the story gonna be a hundred years from now in Northern Nigeria?" 

That's right and it'll be because of you and our missionary partners and the people that now are taking those same risks and it just shows God's faithfulness. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Amen. It's going to require tenacity. It's going to require a tenacity because of the opposition and the enemy's just getting entrenched. That's literally where Christianity and Islam collide along that 10th parallel which Nigeria is part of. So brother, we're super excited when we launch this, I hope everybody watching this you'll share it with your friends and family because it is going to give you an insight I think that is unique that will help you understand as sort of a case study for the global issue, the epidemic really, and the haves and haves nots as far as allocation of resources. So John's team, as there's no one better. No one better. John brother. Great to have you. Thanks for joining us on the podcast. 

 

John Grooters:

I hope if anyone watches this podcast a couple of things I'd like to ask them: one is that they pray for you, because you're as "foolish" as Paul was man. You don't have any sense in your whole body, you walk straight into these places time after time at least three trips a year, and Greg is the kind of leader that he doesn't send anybody where he doesn't go himself.

And that's true leadership. And so we pray for your fruitfulness, not your safety, but your fruitfulness. Pray that you're safe as well. But we can keep you safe and sit you in Kansas City or somewhere and never leave, but you're not that, but we want to pray for you. And then secondly, if you're listening to this podcast and you're stirred, pray for our missionary partners, pray for them. Don't, don't just hear me say the word just right when I finished this podcast, just say amen to what those guys said, that's a prayer. Amen to what they said. 

And then, look at joining us or join someone who's doing that. And so, if you want to hear about how you can get involved in Unknown Nations, go to the website, get involved, and you live in a town where some other mission group is doing great work.

We're not, again, we're not competing with them. We're all a team. So get involved with somebody. I believe it's good for every Christian to do it. I think it's just how God made us. But please pray for Greg and for our partners and get involved. 

 

Greg Kelley:

Ah, thanks, John. You're a blessing, my friend. You are a blessing. Well, friend, that does it. Thank you for joining us on the Unknown Nations Podcast. And as John alluded to, visit our website at UnknownNations.Com to learn more about how you can get involved. Subscribe, that would be amazing. Follow, join us on this incredible journey of faith, hope, and transformation. Join us in making Jesus known at the ends of the earth. The impact that you have truly, truly is going to be immeasurable and together we can see God's kingdom expand to the darkest corners of the earth. God bless you, and we'll catch you next time.