Unknown Nations Podcast

Greg Kelley:
Well, hello everyone and welcome to the Unknown Nations Podcast, highlighting what God is doing in the most spiritually dark places in the world today. I am so excited to be joined by a dear friend of mine for, I think over 20 years, Ruth. Is that right? Is that safe to say? I don't want to start it with anything that's a downer, but that's the reality, right?

Ruth Kramer: 
Yeah. But you know, time flies when you're having fun, right? 

Greg Kelley: 
Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And of course, this is Ruth Kramer from Mission Network News, who has just been a huge blessing to the mission community, the body of Christ in general. And Ruth and I are going to dig into our favorite topic, the Great Commission.

Super excited that you could join us. Of course, my name is Greg Kelley, CEO here at Unknown Nations, where we have the honor to serve God, to help reach the most zero access, barrier ridden, spiritually antagonistic, spoken word reliant people groups on the planet, giving birth to the church in impossible places.

And Ruth, the only way that happens is if we are obedient as followers of Jesus to really his last words. And we're talking about the Great Commission. I'm going to, I'm going to quote it here to start us off, Ruth. And then, I'd love to talk about a research study that was done a few years ago that shocked all of us. 

But I'd like to talk about maybe the implications of it with you a little bit as we're starting it out. And so when we say the Great Commission friend, we're talking about the end of the gospel of Matthew, it's also referenced in in the gospel of Mark, but really the main reference to the Great Commission is in Matthew 28:18-20, where Jesus said: "all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all I have commanded. And surely I'll be with you always, even to the ends of the ages." 

That is the Great Commission. Now it's not the last thing Jesus said, which we'll get into later, but it is the Great Commission. And Ruth, I think that shocking thing that study that I was referencing was from our friends at Barna Research and what that said was 51% of churchgoers had no idea what the Great Commission was. When you read that or heard about that study for the first time, what did it do to you and what was your reaction?

Ruth Kramer: 
I was in disbelief. How is it possible for the United States, that 51%, over half of the body of Christ in the United States, couldn't identify the main thing, you know? And didn't recognize what the Great Commission was. And what it showed me was a number of things: it showed me the state of our church. It showed me the challenges that our pastors face, and it showed me the heart of the body in the U.S., good or bad. 

The people who are most vocal about getting on board with a Great Commission expression are in such a minority in every church group that they barely get noticed. They barely have any part of the budget to send any programs forward or grow anything that's out there. There's not a lot that's being given to building capacity. And I don't have a lot of statistical data in front of me for this, but as I look at the trend that we've been covering over the years one of the things that I noticed was in the late 90s, you had this rise of seeker friendly churches.

Everywhere you look, you have a seeker friendly church. But I think a lot of people would agree that seeker friendly churches, while they were meant to be friendly for people who wouldn't ordinarily walk through the door of a traditional church were gospel-like. So they would go all the way to the point of preaching the gospel, but not quite closing the sale.

Not quite saying, this is what it is to be a follower of Christ. And here's the invitation: do you want to be a follower of Christ? Is there a way we can walk in community with you to show you a little bit more about what this relationship is? But those things weren't happening in those seeker friendly churches. Just, you know, broad stroke, really general picture of things. And I think the result of that, down the line, is you have kids who are growing up in that atmosphere of gospel life, and now they're adults, and haven't been discipled or grounded in the Word. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's interesting that as I travel around the world and have just these amazing friendships with people, I've met some of the greatest teachers in the world and they're not behind pulpits in America.

And I have some friends who are amazing preachers, but some of the best I've heard are around the world. And one, my favorite, it's a dear brother named Ferdinand in Northern Nigeria. And we talk about this topic of missions. And of course, we're in Northern Nigeria where more people have been killed to be a follower of Jesus than the rest of the world combined.

So this is harsh territory. And there's so many people that need to hear Jesus for the first time. And so, when I was talking to him about “what's the strategy, you know, how do you mobilize? How do you engage the Christians with the heart of the Great Commission? And how do you educate them about it?”

And he says "I don't really talk about the unreached. They people kind of know they're up there. My focus is on helping the bride, and taking the bride to a place where they fall more in love with Jesus. And as the bride falls more in love with Jesus and becomes that takes this path of discipleship the manifestation of that will be a love for your neighbor and especially those who don't have the gospel."

So I think that rings to your point, that in the absence of discipleship and depth of discipleship, it's probably not shocking that 51% of churchgoers have never heard of the Great Commission. But I think the shocking part of that too, is that we can't make the assumption that, well, that means the other half, they know what the Great Commission is, because that study went on to say that only 17% of churchgoers actually could identify what the Great Commission was. So less than one in five churchgoers, who are the crowd we're trying to get, can know what the Great Commission is. What are a couple of things that maybe you think can help that kind of shift that trajectory and get us to a place where there's more participation across the body of Christ?

Ruth Kramer: 
If I had the answer that was 100% right, we wouldn't be having this discussion. 

Greg Kelley: 
No pressure, no pressure. 

Ruth Kramer: 
I think a lot of it is. People are intimidated by the idea of unreached, by the idea of mission because it feels like over there, there's no direct connection. There's no direct investment because the first thing that you hear from people who are first entering into this conversation is, "well, my neighbor's 'unreached'", you know and, and, or like, you know, "what about the people that are in my community who are 'unreached?'" 
And then, you're like, “okay, do we want to get into the semantics of it?” Like what are, who are the unreached and, and are they truly unreached in the U.S.? And on all of these things that you start getting into words and vocabulary and things like that. And people just, they just check out.
I think this is an invitation for people to find their place in the story, in the great story. You know? And we all have a story with Jesus. And so you are inviting people to be part of your story. You're sharing your experiences of who Jesus is to you, your relationship, some of the things that have helped you walk through some difficult times.

Like there's that whole thing of, weep with those who weep and mourn with those who mourn and rejoice with those who rejoice. That is walking in community, in life with people and inviting them into your story with, with God, with who Jesus is, and, and it's an invitation. It starts with being willing. So I think the first, the first thing is you gotta say yes to the question that God is asking you. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I love that a lot. And I think my thought on that is I think a lot of people detach themselves from this idea because they look at the missionaries that go out and they think "oh my gosh. Well, that could never be me. I would never go to Africa. I would never go to Latin America. I'd never go to Asia," or whatever. And they almost like mentally detach themselves from it. And I think it's important, I love what you said about finding yourself, you know? Because you have a story, you have a role. When Jesus gave the Great Commission, yes, he was speaking to the disciples, but essentially it was a word for all of us as his followers.

And we say here at Unknown Nations, find your expression of what that looks like. And, you know, I think about Paul. Everybody's not going to be Paul. Everybody's not going to have the calling like Paul to be commissioned like him. 

There's a powerful verse in Acts 26 where Jesus says to Paul, "I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting. Now get to your feet for I have appeared to you to appoint you as my service, servant and witness. I am sending you to the Gentiles to open their eyes so they may turn from darkness to light." 
What is probably the most dramatic calling in Christian history, right? The activation and the mobilization of arguably the greatest missionary of all time, all of us are not going to have that calling.

And the fact that we don't have a calling to sort of pack our bags doesn't mean that we are not to participate. So Ruth, when we think about this idea of Paul being called, not everybody is going to have that same sort of dramatic calling to go. But we all have a role, to your point, we all have a story.
We all have a place to engage. How do we encourage the body so that the messages are for everyone? And it's not a compartmentalization of all, "that's just those people, not for me." But no, no, no, we all, this Great Commission applies to all of us, whether you're going to go or have another expression. How, what are some ways we can encourage people with that sort of explanation?

Ruth Kramer: 
We frequently use the catchphrase, "pray, give and go." And now we add advocacy, because there's a lot of places where you can't go safely. But, these are action points, and it starts with prayer. I think a lot of times when you talk to members of the persecuted church, and you ask them, “what can we do for you? You know, how can we walk alongside you?” 

They'll say, “pray for us, pray that our faith holds true, and pray that…” And then, they'll fill in the blanks with other things. And what it is, if you don't have a heart for the cause or for a people group or what have you, maybe start with that conversation with God and ask him to soften your heart. Ask him to open your eyes to things that are around you and ask him what he's calling you to. And then be ready to respond when he answers because he will answer. 

When we talk to the new writers in our newsroom, we're always telling them to pay attention to the stories that resonate with you because those are the areas that fit and and you're like, "it's the God shaped fingerprint that's fitting on your soul." And so, these are the things that you're going to care about more because God is drawing you to that and it's a calling. So, you know, pray about it and then be ready to respond. It really is. What more could God do through his people if we just said yes? 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah, I love that I mean it that quite honestly could be the scariest prayer of your life. Genuinely authentically enter into that prayer, and then you may get the scary reaction, which I always say, like the two scariest, most powerful words in response to prayer or even God initiating activity in someone's life is "follow me," right? "Follow me." 

Ruth Kramer: 
Yeah. There's a lot of unknowns. 

Greg Kelley: 
There's a lot of unknowns that I will make you fishers of men, but that a lot of times it means the willingness. Are we willing to give something up? With that calling and that direction, and he might call you to go, but more than likely that expression is going to be sacrificial, but it will be the greatest act of obedience that you've ever had.

Ruth, I'd like to talk a little bit, we said, at the beginning, “yeah, the Great Commission is the end of the gospel of Matthew and it's the resurrected Christ who said it.” 

However, it wasn't the last thing he said, of course, that is found as Acts 1:8. When he said, now the reason we know it's the last thing he said is because in Acts 1:9, it says, and in their presence a cloud emerged and Jesus ascended into heaven. So, it's safe that whatever came out of his mouth before the ascension is the last thing he said. And of course, he said "when you receive the Holy Spirit and power, you'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the earth." So, he covers everything equally, which means you're your next door neighbor who doesn't know Jesus, is just as big of a priority and importance to Jesus as the person in a Somali refugee camp who cradle to grave has never heard of Jesus. So, they're all equally important.

But when we think about those quadrants, the Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and ends of the earth, how do you sort of divide that practically? That was obviously contextualized in the day, but I believe there's meaning for it today when we're to look at not just a geographic, but a spiritual condition of the world. How can that help guide us as the body of Christ?

Ruth Kramer: 
Well, in everything that we do, you are the expression of the Great Commission, right? So, when you're talking about your Jerusalem, this is your immediate community, your family, your friends, the people that you interact with all the time. What is your Great Commission expression, your discipleship walk to these people? So, let's take that example earlier, where we have people saying "well, they unreached, you know, my neighbor." 

Well, see here's the thing: they're not unreached because you're the expression of the Great Commission to them. How are you being Jesus to that person? How are you praying for them? How are you looking for opportunities to share the message of the gospel and what are you doing to improve the conversation? 

So, Judea is the wider community, like your like minded culture kind of thing, so maybe that could be your statewide kinds of things, that could be your larger cities kinds of things, maybe larger ministries, coming alongside some of these other ministries that have need for more people to carry those messages, and then you've got the other part where most people put on the brakes. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. Scary, scary. 

Ruth Kramer: 
Yeah, because you hear all these stories about persecution and everything, but nobody starts at that level, right? 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah. 

Ruth Kramer: 
You, you build into that, you grow into that, and there's all these Ebeneezers along the way, where God is taking you through something, and you turn around and you go, "oh, this far God brought me. Oh, this far God brought me." 

And each one is a handhold to greater strength and greater faith, and greater, a greater walk a closer walk with Jesus, right? So, we're not asking you to start where the Olympians are. We're asking you to start with the first step. You know, take the first step and do the next right thing, right?

Greg Kelley: 
That's right. And the thing I love about that verse is the conjunction that ties it all together which is, "and." So, what that means, I think to your point, is (hypothetical person talking:) "My next door neighbor is super easy. He's accessible. My family member who has been really hostile, I get three or four touch points with them annually. It's a little bit easier for me. Whereas the guys in Somalia, oh, that's super terrifying." 

Well, we're not saying don't do anything with that. We're saying kind of ease your way. So, start with informing yourself about them so you can pray so you can be knowledgeable about them. Don't just pass them off until you deal with your difficult sort of family member and then... No, no "and" (from Acts 1:8) means simultaneously. 

So, Ruth and I would encourage you with that. And the other thing about that, Ruth, when I think about this whole notion of gospel sort of proclamation referring to sharing the good news of Jesus Christ. And then that involves you saying something and telling people that testimony, or that Jesus died for their sins, and that He rose again so that you could have eternal life, right? And again, community with the Father forever and ever.

But it's also this idea of gospel demonstration, which is sometimes, you don't even want to lead with your mouth.
In fact, I think of one of my favorite stories of this is in Northern Nigeria, where a village chief, when the Christian local indigenous leaders went in there, had an incredibly hostile reaction. He wanted nothing to do with it, saw their Bible, didn't want them to proclaim the gospel. 

So, they never could even get the opportunity to do that. And maybe this is even you could find a correlation to a neighbor or a family member. They're so hostile. But when you demonstrate and show the love of Jesus, in the case of the Muslim chief, it was we did a water well and it changed everything. And this guy all of a sudden looked at us through a totally different lens, like, "you care about me. You care about my family. You care about our community. Now, what is it that you were going to say?"

Why do you think both of those (gospel proclamation and demonstration), need to have sort of an element of, of activation when we talk about Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria and the ends of the earth. Why is it important that we get that right? 

Ruth Kramer: 
Well, when Jesus ministered to people who were maybe enemies of the state at the time, he met their physical needs before he did anything else.
And that got their attention so that they wanted to know more. It opened the door for another question, for a conversation. They came to him. And I think that's what we're talking about here is if their bellies are rumbling and they're on the brink of starvation, they can't hear anything you're saying because the actions have to be going with the words, you know, and if all you have is words, people can't eat the words, you know?

So it is both. It's both. And it's one of those things where it's a tricky balance because a lot of ministries will go maybe too far one way and not have enough gospel interaction. And then you got some that go the other way, where it's all words and no hands and feet.

So, a cup of cold water in Jesus's name can do a lot to open doors. And that's what you find in situations where people are in crisis. And they're absolutely desperate. When you meet a physical need and you're not asking anything of them, they say, why are you doing this? Because even people from my own faith, like the Red Crescent or what have you, we'll just use the Red Crescent as an example because you're talking about a Muslim area.

Even people from my own faith won't help us unless we do XYZ. What's the catch? They're waiting for the other shoe to drop. And when these gospel workers, these hands and feet of Jesus, don't ask for anything, but they just say, we're just doing this because Jesus loved us and we're loving you because he showed us how to do this.

We're not asking anything. Then they come to you again, and that opens the door for the conversation. And then you can have some time to introduce Jesus, right? Because if you just hit him upside the head with it. There's going to be some immediate resistance because "who's this? Who are you to tell me anything? I don't know you from Adam." 

Greg Kelley: 
Yes, right. Exactly. Exactly. I love that the Holy Spirit uses those things and sometimes we put all the pressure in the world on ourselves. And like "I need to know it better. I need to have other scriptures memorized." And those things are important, but it's not on you. I think that the key is like this: stepping out in faith and allowing the Lord to move through you.

The description that comes to mind is when I think the disciples were beginning to get desperate and the idea of Jesus is going to leave them, right? And he's gotta tell them all, "it's in your best interest that I leave, but I won't leave you alone. When he (speaking of the Holy Spirit) comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment." So, Jesus was like "hey, you just do your part you plant the seed, and I will soften that heart. I will work with them." 

And you know when we think about that Ruth, and we think about either from a location standpoint that is again the next door neighbor, or we'll just use the Somali refugee who's never heard of Jesus their whole life, they're they're in the quadrants. Or from an era perspective, so the missionaries from the late 1800s to you know, 2025, right?

So those are both opposite scenarios. They both require the same message. The message doesn't change whether it's my next door neighbor or the Somali refugee. The message didn't change, whether I may have been using more proper English back in the mid 1700s than I am in 2025. But the message fundamentally is the same.

However, the strategy is going to be totally different. It's going to be a different sort of process. Let's talk a little bit about that when we think about, like, why is it important for us to sort of, when we look at the mission field that we got, whether we're going to the next door neighbor or we're going to the ends of the earth.

That process of asking the Lord, what is the best approach to kind of engage? What's my strategy execution here? Why, why do you think Christians should take the time to ask the Lord to help us with that? I mean, when we're trying to be an effective witness, is there anything to that? Is there significance to that seeking the Lord for the strategy?

Ruth Kramer: 
Well, sometimes I think we overcomplicate it by saying we need to have a strategy. I think a lot of things that we've said throughout this program have been really starting with praying and asking God to lay something on your heart, and then asking for the opportunities to respond. And then be listening and waiting and ready to do something ready to act. That's the strategy. You know, there's, there's not a lot more to it. I mean, sometimes you need to figure out the logistics of stuff, but logistics are just the wheels to the engine, right? 

Greg Kelley: 
Yes. 

Ruth Kramer: 
The strategy is kind of similar. It's pretty much the same as it's always been. And that is to ask God to reveal something to you, be praying into a situation. Educate yourself, and a lot of times when people kind of put the brakes on the ends of the earth part of the Great Commission, it's because it's unfamiliar. It's uncomfortable. “What am I going to have to give up?”

There's a lot of fear of the unknown, even as you're looking at the unknown and the unreached, right? And so, you have to ask God to soften your heart, get educated, understand it. And when you get excited about something, start looking for ways to respond. I think you will find that it is surprising when you open yourself up to what love does. You know the fact of the matter is that, back when I started my career in journalism, missions were not on my radar at all. Like I was not interested in it. 

Greg Kelley: 
Wow. 

Ruth Kramer: 
And at my dad's funeral, people were talking about him being a church planter and a missionary, and I was stunned. Okay, I know this sounds really bad. I didn't know my dad was a church planter, because I grew up in his church, but I didn't know he planted it, right? And I didn't know he was discipling all these people in his church, because they were just, this is a church we, you know, we were going to. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah. 

Ruth Kramer: 
And so I didn't know all of the things that he'd laid into the execution of a strategy, the execution of having a vision that God laid on his heart and seeing what he was going to be doing.

And to my embarrassment, that was a thing that "missionaries are weird people. They're like these just weirdos, strange. I don't, I don't want to have anything to do with them." So, all the way through college, I'm taking myself seriously in my career, and I'm seeing myself behind a news anchor desk in New York, right?

And that's where I'm going. And somewhere along the line, God sidelines everything, and he kind of laughs at my plans, and I wind up at Mission Network News. And the first question Greg Yoder asks me, because he was the executive director at the time, he says, "do you think you could write stories on missions?"

And I was desperate enough that I said, "I'll write a story about anything." Right? And so my first interview was with a pastor out of Columbia who had lost his church to the drug cartels because he refused to soften his message. He was just going to preach the gospel. He wasn't going to bend the line for anything. He says, "this is the Word of God and I can't do anything different." 

So he lost, they burned his church down. And, and I was like, this is where the rubber meets the road. Do I believe in God or don't I? 

Greg Kelley: 
Mhm. Yeah. Wow.. Wow. That's a powerful story. And I think that for so many people when they're hearing you talking about this guy in Columbia, but then they're also hearing us talking about the next door neighbor.
We want them to feel encouraged, like there's steps you can take. And I'd love what Ruth has mentioned a couple of things: if you're looking at taking the next step and saying, "Lord, I want to be more involved. Okay. I've got the sort of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, they aren't too intimidating, but that ends of the earth thing."

I think, from a practical standpoint, Ruth and I would both say, educate yourself, just get informed because we have an equal responsibility as a follower of Jesus to be involved in the ends of the earth as we do our next door neighbor. But the statistics which we shared, a terrifying statistic with you in the beginning, and that is that 51 percent of churchgoers, they have no idea what the Great Commission is.

I mean, they have no idea about anything. Well, another terrifying stat is that 1 out of 100 followers of Jesus (so this is even in church code, we'll just say followers of Jesus) have any expression of the ends of the earth. So, that is a place that you need to educate yourself on. How could someone begin to educate themselves, Ruth, on the ends of the earth? What is it? What it isn't? How would you coach someone up on that? 

Ruth Kramer: 
Well, I hope this doesn't sound like I'm tooting my own horn too much. Not at all. This is what Mission Network News is here for. We are here to help inform people. We look at the current events through the lens of the Great Commission, so we are looking at a lot of different things as they're happening and unfolding in the world.

And using those current events as the backdrop to what God is doing through his people in those countries. And a lot of times we're trying to encourage people to some kind of response, prayer needs coming alongside in advocacy or giving, because this stuff doesn't happen magically.
Money does actually have to come in to support some of this stuff. So it's not a thinly veiled request. There's always going to be an opportunity to give off your talent. And sometimes there just needs to be more people at what we're hearing from so many churches from the United States all the way to Japan to the unknown parts of the world. We need more people. The harvest is ready, but the workers are few. And it's because people are intimidated by so many things that are going on. Now, the reality is that the world is coming to us. 

We have so many opportunities now coming to the United States with all the [refugees].

Well, maybe there's a pause in some of that. But in our communities, we have a richness of immigrants that are here and giving us access to a people group we wouldn't have had ordinarily. (We would have had to) look for those people, try to meet some of them, come alongside, pray into it and see where you can be hands and feet of Christ to a family that's just trying to find a new normal. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah, yeah. I love that. Super practical, Ruth, very tangible, things that we can step into even today. I mean, if you're listening to this, hopefully you've been encouraged by what Ruth and I have shared with you. The goal, our message, is to find your expression of the Great Commission. Find your expression locally. Find your expression of a people group, a nation that has never heard of Jesus.
And trust me, your life will never be the same. Well, Ruth, thank you for being a part of the Unknown Nations Podcast, friend. It's so, so good to have you with us. 

Ruth Kramer: 
Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. 

Greg Kelley: 
Well, friends, thanks for joining us today on the Unknown Nations Podcast visit our website at UnknownNations.Com to learn more about how you can get involved. Subscribe. Follow. Join us on this incredible journey of faith to make Jesus known in the ends of the earth. The impact that you can have is immeasurable. We're looking forward to seeing you next time on the Unknown Nations Podcast.