Unknown Nations Podcast

Greg Kelley: 
Well all friends and welcome again to The Unknown Nations Podcast, highlighting what God is doing in the most spiritually dark places in the world. Today I am with a dear friend of mine, Dr. Kabanda. I can't wait for you to meet this brother who I've known for 25 years.  Florimond is a leader now in the country of the Democratic Republic of Congo.

He's got such a unique perspective on so many of the things that you've been hearing in the news, we're gonna get it right from the horse's mouth, so to speak, and talk Florimond about what is actually going on in Congo today. Every Christian needs to be aware of this situation. Well, my name's Greg Kelley with Unknown Nations, where we have the honor to serve God by helping reach the most zero-access barrier ridden, spiritual, antagonistic spoken word, reliant people, groups on the planet, giving birth to the church in impossible places. And it truly is impossible for us to do that without key, wonderful indigenous partners who love Jesus, that are really on the front lines of these challenging places. Can't do it without them. And Florimond is very much that. So Brother it is so good to have you with us on this episode. 

Dr. Florimond: 
So good to see you, brother, Greg, Kelley. It's been so long. 

Greg Kelley: 
It's been so long. 

Dr. Florimond:
I'm so glad to see you again. 

Greg Kelley: 
Well, when we met we were just young guys. No gray hairs anywhere 25 years ago. 

Dr. Florimond: 
I know. I still remember that day. Just like a miracle. It was just like a miracle. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah. 

Dr. Florimond: 
We just saw each other and yeah, we connected. And God connected us.  

Greg Kelley: 
So, Florimond worked with one of the local organizations in West Michigan that helped place refugees who were coming to West Michigan. And we had a huge influx of Bosnians and people from Sudan. You probably remember The Lost Boys and Congo and other countries. How many languages do you speak? 

Dr. Florimond: 
Oh, seven languages. Yes. 

Greg Kelley: 
So between, I will say this. He doesn't speak seven languages between us. We speak eight languages. Right? That's what, can I say that? 

Dr. Florimond: 
Exactly. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah. Okay. Exactly. I'm still working on my first, but Florimond is just an amazing brother and from over these 25 years, Florimond, it's really been humbling to watch just how the Lord has elevated you and given you favor. It's a great example of here who was a guy who was in ministry and the Lord opened a door back in his home of the Democratic Republic of Congo, in the world of government. And so talk a little bit about brother, what sort of your inroads into that, and then where you're at right now with your responsibilities. 

Dr. Florimond: 
Okay. When I first went to Congo, I had several positions because I started teaching in Bukavu at the Catholic University. And from there I went to start the Institute of Nyangezi where we are teaching nurses how to take care of our population there. So I started that and from there I went to Kinshasa where they called me to be the Chief of Staff of the Ministry of Scientific Research and Innovation. And while working there they said, "oh man, we will give you the position of the head of the nuclear authorities of Congo."

Greg Kelley: 
Wow. 

Dr. Florimond: 
So right now I'm the Nuclear Program Authority of the DRC in the Democratic Republic of Congo. 

Greg Kelley: 
That is amazing. Okay, Florimond, so you have had this amazing journey of being in the US and you came here from Congo and then the Lord opened up these doors and now literally working at the Ministry of Scientific Research and Innovation heading up nuclear regulation. I mean, what? What an amazing journey to just talk a little bit about. How you've seen the Lord kinda work in the midst of that. Because a lot of times you'll hear people kind of coming the other direction from the business world, from government into ministry. But when you are a follower of Jesus, everything is ministry. Right? 

Dr. Florimond: 
Exactly. Exactly. 

Greg Kelley: 
So you went from preaching and a missionary into serving in the government. Yet, God's hand was all over that process. 

Dr. Florimond: 
Okay. I remember, you know, when we had our flights back going to Tanzania, I remember traveling in the midst of all the banding around there. 

Greg Kelley: 
I remember. 

Dr. Florimond: 
So you know, I was watching, you know, it was like 17 years without going back to Africa, and I was watching and seeing everything happen around me. And from there we went to Congo to Nyangezi. We started the training center with World Mission at that time. And the little clinic, remember, we also took some doctors and nurses from here to go to treat patients at the clinic in Nyangezi. So all these things were eye openers for me. And I said, "you know, the training I had in the USA, you know, I don't see how I can teach American psychology or counseling to counsel Americans would be very difficult for me. I say my ministry here." 

God was equipping me to go to serve my people in Africa. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yes. 

Dr. Florimond: 
That's where my eyes were starting to open. And then I said, "okay, how can I start with that?" 

It'll be to teach them what I learned in America. 

Greg Kelley: 
That's beautiful. 

Dr. Florimond: 
And that's why I started, you know, teaching at the Catholic University of Bukavu. And from there, the authorities saw the potential I had in me. And they said, "okay, can you help us do this also?" 

And from there I went to the Ministry of Scientific Researchers, his chief of staff, and there he was like, "oh man, you are a good learner. You can also learn about nuclear stuff."

They sent me to Vienna in Austria for some kind of training for six months. And when I came back, they gave me the head of the Regulatory Authority of Nuclear Programs in Congo. 

Greg Kelley: 
Man, that's amazing. 

Dr. Florimond: 
That was very, very amazing. Since then I've been going all over the world to train other people in that area. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yeah. That's beautiful. And we're mentioning these locations, you know, Bukavu, Nyangezi, Kinshasa, let me just give you a perspective when you're hearing us say this, so Congo, first of all, is a massive, massive country. Think of the United States. Take the Mississippi River from north to south.

Everything east of the Mississippi River is the size of Congo, this country we're talking about. And the distance between Bukavu and Nyangezi, which is more in Eastern Congo where Florimond is from and Kinshasa is like 1500 miles. It's like going from Michigan to Florida. Describe the difference between Kinshasa and Bukavu? Like what helps someone understand how different we are talking about?

Dr. Florimond: 
Yeah, there's a big, huge difference. First of all, the culture is not the same. Kinshasa is the west part of the Democratic Republic of Congo and Bukavu is in the east where we have mountains and stuff. People from Bukavu, from Nyangezi, all areas. You've even been in the mountains at high altitudes.
So there they're farmers. They are farmers, they have their cows, they farm but in Kinshasa it's more people are in businesses and all kinds of stuff. There are no farms in Kinshasa. You've been to Kinshasa too. So there is a big difference even in culture, in food. In everything, in the language, people in Bukavu speak Swahili and in Kinshasa people speak Lingala. There's some people in Kinshasa who cannot even understand people who are living in Bukavu.  

Greg Kelley: 
It's almost like different countries, isn't it? I mean, it's so different. The eastern part would be more identifying with East Africa. 

Dr. Florimond: 
East Africa, exactly. Exactly.

Greg Kelley: 
Kenya, Tanzania, Rwanda, Burgundi. 

Dr. Florimond: 
Yeah. They speak mostly Swahili. 

Greg Kelley: 
And Kinshasa's the biggest city basically in all of the continent of Africa. 20 million people. So this is like New York City compared to Kalamazoo, Michigan or something like that.

Dr. Florimond: 
Right, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. 

Greg Kelley: 
But there's something else interesting about the east, Florimond. What most people don't realize is that although the GDP or the per capita income of the average household, it's gonna be one of the poorer countries not just in Africa, but in the world.

Yet it literally is probably the richest, wealthiest country for sure in Africa and right up there in the entire world because of its natural resources. And all of them are pretty much in this eastern part, 1500 miles away from the Capitol Kinshasa. So describe that a little bit, Dr. Kabanda, just give someone an appreciation for how rich are we talking about? What kind of resources are actually in Eastern Congo? 

Dr. Florimond: 
So all the world economic experts have said a hundred percent that the Congo is the richest country in the world. It's counting trillions of dollars.
And you can Google, you can go everywhere. They'll tell you the same thing, but why? In the midst of all that wealth is still the poorest country in the world. So it's because of the war. People, everybody wants to get into that resource in Congo. So, let me give you an example: you remember about the atomic bomb of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The uranium came from Congo. So, that's why we go all the time to Los Alamos. That's why I train all my staff. We go all the time there in New Mexico for training in nuclear programs. But still because of the war, people are very, very poor. Imagine the eastern part of the Congo being in the war for the last 30 years. For the last 30 years. When the world is just watching. 

Greg Kelley: 
The world is watching and it's so much suffering. I mean, It's so sad. And I think people look and they say, "oh, that's another Central Africa you know, issue." 

But it's just so violent. And that doesn't even begin to talk about the people who are displaced. You were just telling me, so you're from Bukavu which is Eastern Congo and the states that would be like Michigan and Indiana. The states are north and south Kivu, where a lot of the concentration of carnage has been happening. But you were just telling me in Bukavu, there's been recent attacks and yeah, people have been killed, but countless people just left, right? I mean, they're in the bush. They just sought refuge basically. 

Dr. Florimond: 
Yes. Some in the bush. And I mean, when we talked about all the deaths in Congo is not only by weapons, but some of them by hunger or sicknesses because they leave their homes and go into the bush. 

In the bush, you can find any kind of sickness there. So, just to go back again and talk about the wealth of Congo. We have uranium, we have cobalt, we have copper, we have gold, we have diamond, and we are the first producer in the world of a system of cobalt. Cobalt, you know what cobalt can do? Cobalt is in cell phones in airplanes. People going to the moon use all kinds of technologies. But cobalt is used in so many high tech, high tech stuff. 

Greg Kelley: 
That's the race right now. Right? I mean, China, Russia, all the leading powers in the world, they're trying to advance themselves in the latest technology, and these minerals are critical for that to happen. 

Dr. Florimond: 
Exactly. Most of the rare minerals of the world are in Congo now. 

Greg Kelley: 
What well, you had talked about there's a lot of people that attract sort of bad actors, if you will. There's some people who are in there under legitimate business, but I think I have heard over a hundred different rebel groups that are all competing. different, I had someone, a pilot told me, A missionary pilot told me that he mapped out an area and it's several hundred miles that you're flying.

And he literally said every 30 miles that he plotted, there's a different representation of a rebel group that are totally independent from each other. Some are funded from this country and that country and totally different agendas, but they're all taking resources. Is that correct? 

Dr. Florimond: 
That's correct. How this was started as this was started by the multinational companies who wanted to get hold of that mineral. They didn't want to go through the proper channel to go through the government. That will take time. Maybe, maybe the profits won't be so high.
So they went through Rwanda. And they started, you know, creating problems in Congo by using Rwanda as the front run of those rebel groups. But what you need to understand, the rebel groups in the east part of Congo are not only rebel groups from Rwanda or from Ghana, but even Islamists are coming inside there.

Lately we had some ADF going into a Christian area and beheading people. That's a situation you are finding all over the Congo. And this war, they kind of just say M23. But in between M23 you have all kinds of nationalities. Coming from all over the world. You have Islamists, you have Somalis, you have all people coming there. 

Greg Kelley: 
They're just trying to take advantage of and exploit the insecurity. 

Dr. Florimond: 
Exactly. Exactly. They're bringing them as mercenaries. And when they're digging all the coltan the stuff they're going through when they're selling them to multinationals. 

Greg Kelley: 
Let's talk a little bit more about a couple of those. You had mentioned the ADF, which this is gonna sound innocent enough friend, but it stands for Allied Defense Forces. And you might go, "oh, they should be an ally, a good guy." 

These people are nasty. It is a radical Islamic group. This is in the vein of Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram, ISIS, the Taliban, I mean these are guys on the bad list and they're being resourced from northern parts, even Sudan, and they come out of Northwest Uganda.

And again, to Florimonds point, the insecurities that have been and the destabilization of Eastern Congo that's been created just creates a wide open avenue for these people to come in. And these guys are coming in with a radical Islamic agenda. And targeting, literally the most dangerous question that these villagers could be asked is, "are you a Christian?"

Dr. Florimond: 
Yeah, exactly. 

Greg Kelley: 
And if they answer yes, they round them up, and then kill them. I mean, that is such a horrific story. And It just happened just a few weeks ago. 

Dr. Florimond: 
A few weeks ago, yes. 

Greg Kelley: 
Oh, Florimond, what is being done or what can be done to kind of slow down? Do they just sort of vanish like ghosts and then they go away? Or do we know kinda where the ADF in particular are located from? Or is it just kind of hitting and then they run off into the bush? I mean, how do they operate? 

Dr. Florimond:
No. You know, when it is scarce in some parts of the world, it's difficult to control everything. Even the Congolese government army cannot control that part because you have all kinds of rebel groups. The other side, if they try to control them, they're coming from the other side. And because Rwanda is backing them and some of Uganda is backing them.

So it's difficult when they come, they heat and run and go back to Rwanda or to Uganda. So it is difficult to get them. But at this point, the government is doing its best to try to control them, but it has become a huge problem. And as I, you can see all those rebel groups, you know, they come like, "okay, we are Congolese. We come to serve the Congolese people. We come because we have a lot of resources." 

But the world is not distributed between the people. But no, no. If you see Bukavu and Goma where they took over right now. People are dying every single day. The M23 is taking small kids, 12 years old, putting them in the army by force. So that they can continue their fighting because of their lack of soldiers. If you say a small thing bad about M23 in the night, you won't sleep. They come, they take you and all your family and you disappear. So people are dying every single day.

Greg Kelley: 
And part of the difficulty is that, as we described, it's such a vast area. And for Kinshasa, where a lot of the resources are in the military and police and so forth to contain that area. It's like the difference in the distance from Dallas, Texas to New York and there's no infrastructure in between, so it's very difficult to police this area, but we keep talking about this group called M23.

And let's just unpack that a little bit. That is a group that is one of these dozens and dozens of rebel groups. They just happen to be fortified more than most heavily resourced. Although Rwanda itself sort of denies it, US intelligence and, and other entities have said it's absolutely backed by Rwanda.

And they are in there, sort of in the name of protecting minority groups like the Tutsi and this goes back to the 94 genocide in Rwanda, where the Hutu sort of basically massacred a million, primarily Tutsis. And then, in fear of retaliation tens of thousands of them left into Eastern Congo and they've been there for all these years now since continuing to stir things up.

But the M23 is really largely out of Rwanda, and these guys are so strong and powerful. See, Bukavu and Goma, are two of the main cities in the east that you've probably never heard of. I mean, we're talking about a city that has over a million people. Right, that they just took over. So what, I mean, how does that even happen? A group comes in and they literally in a day take over Goma, and then a few days later they go down to Bukavu and take over Bukavu. I mean, how does that even look? Are they just coming in with tanks and armory and just overwhelming the local people? 

Dr. Florimond: 
Yeah. That's what happened. Exactly. It was a coalition of so many people coming from all over the place, from Somalia, from Ethiopia, and they had weapons, they have all the weapons you can even imagine. They came in a huge number. They took over Bukavu. They even killed the UN peacekeepers from South Africa, from Bangladesh. I mean, so many of them are killed in that. So they took over, they killed soldiers. It was overwhelming. 

Greg Kelley: 
Yes. 

Dr. Florimond: 
They came in huge numbers. People are talking about 200,000 soldiers. 

Greg Kelley: 
Oh my goodness. And like you said, if someone were to stand up or try to oppose them, they would just kill 'em, take their children. I mean, you're just, you're terrified, right? I mean, there's nothing you can do. Almost. 

Dr. Florimond: 
Terrified. Terrified. Kill their children, their wives. 

Greg Kelley: 
And that's where you're from. I mean, that's your home. What did that do to you? I mean, when you're home, Bukavu, I've been there with you before, several times. And to think of your home being taken over. What did that do? I mean, I'm sure you still have communication with people that are living there right now. 

Dr. Florimond: 
Call them up every single day. So some of them are in the bushes and they remember the training center we did in Nyangezi. And the clinic, the M23 took that over too. They're there with weapons and stuff. So when M23 comes and they come to protect the Tutsis, I mean, that's laughter. There is no minority in Congo. We have so many people groups. We have 430 ethnic groups in Congo. So who are you gonna protect? The Tutsi are not a minority. In Congo, we have Pygmies, we have all kinds of minority people. 

Greg Kelley: 
Just their political statement to justify, right?

Dr. Florimond: 
But the world has eyes open. They know that's not true because you have Tutsis all over the Congo. The killing is not in Congo's culture. They don't kill, they don't. 

Greg Kelley: 
These are precious people. It's so sad because it just feels like the same script keeps replaying over and over, which is these rebel groups that are largely resourced by these multinational entities. You got radical Muslim groups, you've got the neighbors.

Unfortunately, Uganda, Rwanda have all made a play and they all have a similar line, which is "in the name of National Security, we need to be inside of the country of Congo," which conveniently happens to put them over the top of mineral mines that they are extracting out the cobalt and coltan and copper. You wouldn't believe the story if you didn't see it for yourself. You're like, really? What's going on in the world today? And that's exactly what's happening. 

Dr. Florimond: 
That's exactly what is happening. Yeah. I mean, when they say "we are there because of our national security", we don't house rebels. At that time, we told Rwanda, come to Congo and let's see together, because you are really scared about your national security.

Let's work together and see if we can find rebels who are against the Rwandan. They came to Congo for one year. They never found even one rebel group. So now, and no, no, no, they don't have any argument. No alibi. They are just there to loot and to kill people. 

Greg Kelley: 
I think so much of this, Florimond, is as horrible as it must be for you to be Congolese and to see this happening to your precious country. The devil is threatened by Congo because the gospel has established itself in that country. I mean, you think about over a hundred years ago, and we're talking about the era, let's talk about David Livingston, right? The famous missionary would go down the Congo River, going to these areas where the gospel had never been. So you go back a hundred, 150 years and Congo's gonna be less than 2% Christian. And today it's one of the most Christian countries in the entire world. In the 90th percentile. And with that, I think that Congo's a force for the gospel. The enemy's threatened by that because of its ability to send missionaries really around all of Africa. It's a challenge. Talk about the condition of the church. What is all this adversity doing to the body of Christ, particularly in Eastern Congo? 

Dr. Florimond: 
Yeah, exactly. I mean, how the people even can meet, even to worship. In the midst of this war, lately there is one pastor in Bukavu who talked openly in the church about M23 and what they're doing and that pastor since then, they never found him anymore. So he was abducted by M 23. 

Greg Kelley: 
And we don't know if he's alive or not, dunno if he's alive, but because he spoke about it, he was, he spoke about it being kidnapped or whatever.

Dr. Florimond: 
Kidnapped and the church is regressing and we need peace all over the Congo so the church can become strong again. And as you know, you've been in Congo, the Congo can bring the gospel because in Central Africa can bring all of Africa and you know, to cover Africa with the gospel and bring people to the Lord.

Greg Kelley: 
Amen. So it sounds like you're asking people to just be praying for leaders in Congo. 

Dr. Florimond: 
Exactly. Exactly. 

Greg Kelley: 
Pray for the church in Congo. Pray for peace in Congo, friend. I think that they have experienced, obviously what you just heard from Florimond millions and millions of deaths. It's truly a world war because it involves other neighboring countries. And at this point, although we've received optimism from some other countries you've got the African Union and the fact that the UN it's on their radar that that's optimism, but ultimately it's about the heart changes and it's really these nations that you identified. There's still tension in the people group aspect of one country filled with different people groups targeting others. There's still a foundation of that at work too, isn't there? 

Dr. Florimond: 
Exactly. Exactly. But now since, the President Trump came to power, there is a game changer in power right now because now the USA is openly condemning Rwanda and saying, "you are there, not because you want to protect any group, but because you are looting minerals in Congo."
So that's a game changer because all the international community, now they are all together. They said, "no, Rwanda, we just see that you are there too, not to protect the people, but to try to get all the minerals in Congo and they give it to bandits all over the world." 

So, we think that with Christians, coalitions and all the prayers, things start changing slowly by slowly. But we need to push, to push, to have pressure and pressure again so that we can end and we have peace in Congo. 

Greg Kelley: 
Peace in Congo and that for once and final, the people of Congo receiving the blessing of the natural resource that's theirs. Which they have not benefited from. That day is coming, brother. I see that day. I know that's your heartbeat, as a Congolese. And you and I have talked about that many times. I believe that day will come. And now we'll have more prayer warriors on our side on this one.

Dr. Florimond: 
Amen. Amen. We are just waiting for that. Amen. Yes. 

Greg Kelley: 
Well, thanks so much buddy for being here. It's so good to see you. I just celebrate our friendship and what God has done for these 25 years together.  

Dr. Florimond: 
I really appreciate you. You are one of a kind. you know, you know when, you know, we go together in Africa, you feel, when you're in Africa, you are African.

When you're in Asia, you are Asian. When I mean to have so much personality is not for everybody. So thank you so much for your work and for your heart for the lost people for the Unknown Nations is just precious to the Lord and through everybody also. 

Greg Kelley: 
Thanks brother. Really appreciate that. Well, that does it for us, friend. Thank you for joining us today on the Unknown Nations Podcast. Visit our website at UnknownNations.Com to learn more about how you can get involved. Subscribe, follow. That would be a huge blessing. Share with your friends. Join us on this incredible journey of faith, hope, and transformation. Join us in making Jesus known at the ends of the earth. The impact that you can have is immeasurable and together. Together we can see God's Kingdom expand into the darkest corners of the world. We'll catch you next time on the Unknown Nations Podcast.